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    1. #26

      FV-QR

      Theorectically couldn't Haldex be set up to give a car permanent AWD... or even make a car that has FWD, RWD, and AWD modes... an EWD car (every wheel drive)

    2. #27
      Member bluerabbit0886's Avatar
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      Re: FV-QR (Morridin19)

      Quote, originally posted by Morridin19 »
      Theorectically couldn't Haldex be set up to give a car permanent AWD... or even make a car that has FWD, RWD, and AWD modes... an EWD car (every wheel drive)

      it is my understanding that for the mk4 R32, there is a haldex controller that essentially does that. while the normal haldex controller waits for 15* of slip to activate and disconnects the rear under braking, this "performance" controller uses throttle position information to begin loading the haldex diff, before the car even moves. also, it remains engaged under braking, acting like a full-time awd car like a quattro-equipped audi, any subaru, or an evo. kinda
      Quote Originally Posted by butterface View Post
      It isn't whether a government can represent its people that is the best measure of its effectiveness. Rather, it's whether a government is designed to leave its people alone.

    3. #28

      Re: Haldex -- Let's talk about it (anon_az)

      Quote, originally posted by anon_az »
      The fact it has a front-bias makes it great to drive every day in the winter, it's a more usable day-to-day AWD than something with a 50/50 initial split like Torsen. Last winter, we had a B5 A4 Avant and my 95 Legacy wagon (90/10 initial split, I think it can go up to 50/50 if needed). I'm using this as an example because it behaves much like Haldex. From a stop in snow, you'd just gas the Legacy and it would go. The A4 needed a little more attention as giving it too much would make the rear go squirrelly. Now, of course I had no problem driving the A4 in the snow and never had an issue, but there was something cool about driving the Legacy like I was driving on dry pavement, there was no consideration for the snow at all and it went along just fine, it was pretty much impossible to make it lose stability even on tight turns. Of course, the A4 was more playful, and that's why (stock) Haldex isn't really favored here, it doesn't play ball in the corners if you wanna have fun with it.

      Modified by anon_az at 7:00 AM 9-21-2009

      This is very true, and its also why for MOST people, the FWD based systems are better.
      Haldex isnt perfect, and in the first gen systems, it really wasnt much better than the previously used viscous couplings (syncro, honda's real time system, etc) Those were even slower, and required actualy wheel spin to kick in. Haldex requires little to no wheel spin to kick it, and can be programmed to stay constantly engaged. However doing this really defeats the purpose of Haldex, which is to make a part time system that engages the rear wheels only when needed, and keeps them disengaged when it doesnt.
      Comparing to Torsen is getting into another thing all together. Driving a Torsen car is much different than a haldex car, and with haldex you do need to keep on the gas as the OP mentioned to keep the rear wheels engaged. With Torsen its always sending 50/50 unless serious slip in detected in one axle set. Even on wet pavement I get get the back out in my Passat 4motions (torsen) where that would probably never happen in a stock haldex car unless really coaxed.
      as much as I like tosen systems, they do have drawbacks, namely fuel economy. My passat 4mo is *okay* in steady highway driving (24-28 mpg) depending on conditions, speeds, etc) but is atrocious in city driving (10-15mpg). With Torsen there is ALOT of drivetrain losses to overcome from a stop, where haldex would do much better.
      For Haldex, it needs a torque vecoting setup (ie saabs XWD) to really be a performance improvement, otherwise, its a stability improver, and it is damn good at that. For a daily driver, Haldex IMO is better than Torsen AWD, but for performance give me tosen, or something like BMW's x-drive, or nissans ATTESA, which are more "electro mechanical" for lack of a better term than haldex which is more like an AWD switch than can be turned on at will. Also IIRC haldex cant send any more than 50% of power to the rear.


      Modified by Jettavr666 at 1:18 PM 9-21-2009

    4. #29
      Member bluerabbit0886's Avatar
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      FV-QR

      Quote, originally posted by Jettavr666 »
      Also IIRC haldex cant send any more than 50% of power to the rear.

      that is correct. all good info in your post [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]
      Quote Originally Posted by butterface View Post
      It isn't whether a government can represent its people that is the best measure of its effectiveness. Rather, it's whether a government is designed to leave its people alone.

    5. #30
      Member Vert2PointO's Avatar
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      Re: FV-QR (bluerabbit0886)

      Here's a very extensive, excellent writeup by Daemon42, a moderator in the mkIV R32 forum. [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]
      .......
      Quote, originally posted by ___ »
      I'd say more like 20-25% measured at the wheels


      Most of the speculation is that Haldex robs less power than most other AWD systems, but
      yes 20-25% loss is likely (as opposed to 25-35% of some other system).
      Quote, originally posted by ____ »
      I don't know for sure but I don't think more than 50% power can be sent to the rear axle. I think the drive to the rear axle comes off the front differential, so that the engine is pretty much rigidly connected to the front wheels, and then there is an electronically controlled viscous coupling to the rear. So with the viscous coupler completely locked you've got a 50-50 split of power.
      If someone knows more details of the Haldex system, please share.


      Firstly, it's hydraulically activated clutches, not a viscous coupling, which can provide full lockup at up to
      something like 800 Nm of engine torque (which is then multiplied by gear ratios and final drive).
      Ok, so people are constantly confused about what 100% torque transfer means.
      Torque is about applied force. If you're not actually applying it (putting it to the ground), then
      it's irrelevant. An engine can't produce 300 lb-ft of torque without a load. A differential can't
      send torque anywhere without a load, and where the load is, is what defines your torque transfer
      characeristics.
      So let's take a simple example. A 4x4 truck with locking diffs front, rear and center.
      Let's say all 3 diffs are locked.
      - Front tires on ice, rear tires on pavement. Hit the gas. 100% torque transfer to the rear, because those
      are the only tires with any grip (load). You can't send 50% of the torque to the front, because they have zero traction.
      Yes, they turn, but no significant torque is required to turn them.
      - Rear tires on ice, front tires on pavement. 100% torque transfer for the front.
      - Ok.. unlock the center diff (regular open diff, no lock). No matter what the traction situation is,
      you'll have a "perfect" 50/50 torque split. BUT we'll see that's not so desirable.
      - Front tires on ice, rear tires on pavement, you'll go nowhere because it requires virtually zero torque to spin
      the fronts, and thus the rears will get the same zero torque. That the definition of a true 50/50 split.
      An open diff always sends the same amount of torque to both sides and the actual amount that
      reaches the ground is 2x the applied torque at the lowest traction side. So your total grip
      is always heavily limited by the lowest traction side.
      What you usually want in an AWD system is a a 50/50 static distribution (just meaning
      you're applying power to both sides of the diff when traction is the same all around)
      and the ability to provide a total lockup instantly should one end/side lose
      all of its traction. Fully locked allows for a 100% torque transfer to whichever end or
      corner can use it.
      A Helical gear limited slip diff like the Quaife, Peloquin or Torsen can not provide 100% torque
      transfer but it has one advantage of being absolutely instantaneous in its operation.
      It provides a 50/50 static split, and under uneven situations provides about 75-80%
      max torque transfer (depending on angle of the gears) . But it has a flaw too. While an
      open diff always provides a 50/50 split, a torque biasing diff is a torque multiplier only. If the
      low traction side allows for X lb-ft of torque, the high traction side will X * 4 lb-ft of torque.
      The problem is, if one side is on ice, or in the air, then X = 0 and X * 4 = 0 and it spins just like
      an open diff. On the other hand, zero traction is rare on a road car, so even if X is a
      low value, 4X is probably enough to prevent wheelspin.
      Ok.. so where do VC systems and Haldex fall here?
      There are two general types of VCs..
      1. Just a vicsous coupling between the front and rear axles with no center diff.
      One axle is driven all the time, the other does little on the other side of the VC.
      Eventually one axle spins faster than the other, indicating a loss of traction,
      the speed difference causes the viscous fluid to heat up, and become well.. more viscous
      and that transfers torque across to the other axle. A viscous system generally can
      never lock fully (it needs that speed difference to maintain the heat), so it may only be able to
      transfer 80% of the torque to the axle that can use it the most. But even here,
      a FWD with pure viscous coupling center, could send 80% of the torque to the rear
      if the front had no traction and the rear all the available traction.
      Often VC systems overdrive the input shaft a little bit so there is always a slight
      speed differential which keeps the fluid hot and provides quicker lockup when
      the speed difference increases further. A lot of lower end AWD vehicles (minivans for instance)
      use this setup, and ironically some of the highest end cars, like Porsche and Lamborghini have used
      it, because they only need to drive the front tires during launch, but otherwise want
      a RWD car.
      2. Open center diff, with VC between output shafts. This is an open diff
      at the center which provides a static 50/50 torque split, but when one side
      starts to spin faster than the other indicating a traction imbalance, it reacts
      just like the above pure VC. A 50/50 split is perfectly acceptible as long
      as one end or the other doesn't lose so much grip that 50% of the torque will
      cause it to lose traction and spin, and only after it does spin will the VC kick
      in and send, again.. say 80% of the torque to the axle that can use it the most.
      WRX works this way, as do many others.
      The VC alone weighs very little but adds drag, especially when the input shaft
      is overdriven. You can almost always recognize a car with VC only because it'll have
      a listed 90/10 static torque split as it drags the rear around a bit to keep the fluid hot.
      The open center diff plus VC has the added drivetrain loss of the differential itself
      and the fact that it's applying torque to every gear in the drivetrain at both ends
      of the car all the time. I don't know if they typically overdrive the VC to keep it hot or not.
      If not, then it would have slower activation than the usual pure VC. If so, then you have to
      add in that drivetrain loss as well.
      Finally. Haldex. Well, Haldex is a part time, automatically activating AWD system.
      The reason people consider it full time AWD is because it activates quicker than
      most other full time AWD systems when conditions call for it.
      It provides a 100/0 static torque split. That gives it an efficiency advantage
      because it doesn't have to drive the gears in the rear drivetrain. They just freewheel
      which does cause some drag, but not as much as loaded gear upon gear so it's more
      efficient than a system with a center diff and 50/50 split. It has an advantage here
      over VC too because it doesn't have to keep the VC hot by dragging it around
      when not activated. It probably does overdrive the input shaft a bit, but this just
      keeps a small amount of hydraulic fluid pumping around freely. The activation is software
      controlled and consists of closing valves which cause the hydraulics to engage
      the clutchpack. If they overdrive the input shaft they can provide *any* static
      torque split they want with partial activation of the valves. Word is, it has already
      been done.
      But when it's really needed, it activates in less than 15 degrees of wheel rotation (typically
      less than 100ms), provides a near 100% lockup for 100% torque transfer to the rear (if
      the front is totally without traction). This means it activates quicker than both pure VC
      or a diff plus VC. The reason it gets dissed as an AWD system is that for just putzing around
      it normally stays in the 100/0 f/r distribution and it won't activate until there some
      need for it. You don't feel it working until it's really needed. Reviews have said as much.
      An open center diff changes the handling balance of the car even when you don't really need the
      added traction but it also means that the handling characteristics are always consistent.
      A Torsen center diff does the same, but has the advantage that it works in 95% of low
      traction situations even where the open center diff has to fall back on the VC because even
      though the Torsen is just a torque multiplier, 3-4 times the lowest applicable torque is often more than
      enough to power the car where you want. Particularly true of road cars.
      Anyway, what system is "best" depends on what your priorities are.
      A system with a center diff, VC, or Torsen may handle best, but you may pay for it
      in efficiency and that hurts the amount of power you can put to the ground at high
      speeds, as well as your fuel efficiency. Haldex can do everything another system can do
      in nasty conditions and then some, but has a noticably different handling balance in the dry.
      From what I've heard of people who drive it, it's just different, and you need to know that to make
      the most of it, you simply need to push it hard. Kinda have to trust that it's there and
      go ahead and push the car over the edge, knowing that it'll catch you and pull you through.
      Of the road tests I've seen of the 4motion, it's happiest when flung around with great
      abandon, and I've never seen one spin.
      ian
      .......




      Modified by Vert2PointO at 2:15 PM 9-21-2009

    6. #31

      Re: Haldex -- Let's talk about it (JDM2DTM)

      my 01 audi TT had the haldex and it got me through last winter, which had a few TERRIBLE storms. never left me stranded, never had any serious slippage, and i was rolling past more than a few trucks and SUVs that were stranded on the side of the road...

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    7. #32
      Member Darkness's Avatar
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      Re: FV-QR (bluerabbit0886)

      haha then how come in Gran Turismo i can make my R32 10/90 with a variable center differential?!?!

    8. #33
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      Re: FV-QR (Vert2PointO)

      Quote, originally posted by Vert2PointO »
      Here's a very extensive, excellent writeup by Daemon42, a moderator in the mkIV R32 forum. [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]
      .......

      But when it's really needed, it activates in less than 15 degrees of wheel rotation (typically
      less than 100ms), provides a near 100% lockup for 100% torque transfer to the rear (if
      the front is totally without traction). This means it activates quicker than both pure VC
      or a diff plus VC. The reason it gets dissed as an AWD system is that for just putzing around
      it normally stays in the 100/0 f/r distribution and it won't activate until there some
      need for it. You don't feel it working until it's really needed. Reviews have said as much.

      I miss reading Ian's info write-ups.
      I also didn't think that Haldex could send a max of 50% of power to the rear. I could swear it was 100%... and then I read Ian's quoted text above from a while ago.
      Oddfellows Local 726

    9. #34
      Member bluerabbit0886's Avatar
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      Re: FV-QR (Darkness)

      Quote, originally posted by Darkness »
      haha then how come in Gran Turismo i can make my R32 10/90 with a variable center differential?!?!


      its a super-duper japanese performance controller!
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    10. #35
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      Let's not all forget that Bugatti's Veyron makes use of Haldex AWD.

      Of course it goes without saying that the Veyron really doesn't share much in common with its more plebeian VAG siblings.

    11. #36

      FV-QR

      Quote, originally posted by Max Rebo »
      I miss reading Ian's info write-ups.
      I also didn't think that Haldex could send a max of 50% of power to the rear. I could swear it was 100%... and then I read Ian's quoted text above from a while ago.


      well that ruins my idea of having a car that could be RWD, FWD, or AWD at the push of a button

    12. #37
      Member Thumper's Avatar
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      Re: Haldex -- Let's talk about it (bluerabbit0886)

      Quote, originally posted by bluerabbit0886 »
      how is that partially true? its used on the non-B platform 4motion VWs. its used on TTs and A3s.
      "used with vws/audis".

      Now that you put it in quotes, I see the error of my ways.
      Your ambiguous use of the words "used with" had me confused. Sorry.
      Boots and pants and boots and pants

    13. #38
      Member Live-Wire's Avatar
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      Re: Haldex -- Let's talk about it (JDM2DTM)

      I've driven my parents 07' Passat 4Motion 3.6L... powerful "front drive" issues are not present. I've done hard launches and while I can detect a good chirp from the front tires, after a split second everything gets sorted and it feels like a proper AWD. Doesn't have as much rear end push as a Torsen car - I thought with 280hp on tap the back would be more willing to step out then with the 190hp in my old Audi. There's no torque steer that I can notice... so it definitely doesn't feel FWD.
      Fuel economy with the 3.6L has been stellar, I think the Haldex system and tall gearing helps a great deal. I think with a Torsen system the mileage would not be quite as good.
      I can't comment on it in snow yet... but can't wait to try it out and see the differences for myself. I know my old Torsen equipped Audi could do spectacular tail-out powerslides... I'm thinking the Passat might push wide and go more FWD in bad weather?

    14. #39
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      Re: (Dextrobrick)

      Quote »
      haha then how come in Gran Turismo i can make my R32 10/90 with a variable center differential?!?!

      It's the same reason that you can 'chip' a Beetle or Karmann-Ghia.
      Quote Originally Posted by Surf Green
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    15. #40

      Re: Haldex -- Let's talk about it (Live-Wire)

      Quote, originally posted by Live-Wire »
      I've driven my parents 07' Passat 4Motion 3.6L... powerful "front drive" issues are not present. I've done hard launches and while I can detect a good chirp from the front tires, after a split second everything gets sorted and it feels like a proper AWD. Doesn't have as much rear end push as a Torsen car - I thought with 280hp on tap the back would be more willing to step out then with the 190hp in my old Audi. There's no torque steer that I can notice... so it definitely doesn't feel FWD.
      Fuel economy with the 3.6L has been stellar, I think the Haldex system and tall gearing helps a great deal. I think with a Torsen system the mileage would not be quite as good.
      I can't comment on it in snow yet... but can't wait to try it out and see the differences for myself. I know my old Torsen equipped Audi could do spectacular tail-out powerslides... I'm thinking the Passat might push wide and go more FWD in bad weather?

      your going to really have to try to get the Passat with Haldex to step out and power slide like your audi did, especially considering the passat has stability control and IIRC your audi probably did not. Stock haldex equipped cars are not too good for sliding.

    16. #41
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      Re: FV-QR (Max Rebo)

      Quote, originally posted by Max Rebo »
      I miss reading Ian's info write-ups.
      I also didn't think that Haldex could send a max of 50% of power to the rear. I could swear it was 100%... and then I read Ian's quoted text above from a while ago.

      Gen 4 can send 85% of power to a single rear wheel.
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    17. #42
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      Re: Haldex -- Let's talk about it (Nightranger)

      Quote, originally posted by Nightranger »
      Kicks in when it's too late and you've already lost traction. You also don't know when it goes back to 2wd. I really don't know much about it but it seems unpredictable and you can't control when it should be in AWD mode.

      The Haldex system can react infinitely faster than it would for you to react to needing traction and pressing some button on the dash. I wouldn't be concerned.

    18. #43
      Member chuckster1's Avatar
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      Re: Haldex -- Let's talk about it (JDM2DTM)

      Has anyone here purchased this Haldex upgrade for their VWs?
      http://www.neuspeed.com/produc...=1963
      If so, what performance differences have you seen? Was it worth the price?
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    19. #44
      Member bluerabbit0886's Avatar
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      Re: Haldex -- Let's talk about it (Thumper)

      Quote, originally posted by Thumper »
      Now that you put it in quotes, I see the error of my ways.
      Your ambiguous use of the words "used with" had me confused. Sorry.


      its not my problem you cant think good.
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      It isn't whether a government can represent its people that is the best measure of its effectiveness. Rather, it's whether a government is designed to leave its people alone.

    20. #45

      Re: Haldex -- Let's talk about it (bluerabbit0886)

      Just to clarify, the MKIV R32 system can lock at 50/50 max. BUT has the ability to send 100% of the torque to the rear. Get it?
      The MKV version has the ability to lock at a max of 40f/60r or 30f/70r, I can't recall which at this point, but it also can send 100% of the torque to the rear.
      And I concur with Ian, if you have a Haldex equipped car that has a bit of power it is most fun and predictably driven when absolutely thrashed and flogged. I have never spun, but there's plenty of oversteer in the wet if I want it.

    21. #46
      Senior Member PowerDubs's Avatar
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      Re: Haldex -- Let's talk about it (bluerabbit0886)

      Anyone who has any issues with Haldex is just going off here-say and crap that they've heard others say.
      I've owned full on 4x4 trucks, torsion based awd and Haldex based units. You'd never know Haldex was 'FWD based' if no one told you.
      It feels nothing like FWD and will squat the ass-end and put you in your seat when launched. It definitely feels like the car is being PUSHED as opposed to pulled. Can you do donuts in a FWD?
      The system is pretty much bulletproof also.. there are a lot of high power R32 running around and you don't hear any issues with the Haldex clutch-pack breaking.
      And for all the people talking about OMG it has to slip before it engages...that is only from a standstill and you WON'T notice it is any slower. I've pulled several 1.7 60's at the drag strip.
      Once moving it does not slip before engaging-
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    22. #47
      Member Professor Gascan's Avatar
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      FV-QR

      Quote, originally posted by PowerDubs »
      I've owned full on 4x4 trucks, torsion based awd and Haldex based units. You'd never know Haldex was 'FWD based' if no one told you.
      It feels nothing like FWD and will squat the ass-end and put you in your seat when launched. It definitely feels like the car is being PUSHED as opposed to pulled. Can you do donuts in a FWD?

      Well, on my MKI TT 3.2 you could tell it was FWD based every time you tried to power out of a corner and all you got was understeer. It never felt like the rear wheels were doing anything; there was no adjustability to the chassis. Maybe that's the fault of Audi in the chassis setup more than a detriment of the Haldex. Hell, even power oversteer in snow was best initiated with the handbrake because of the FWD tendencies of the system. If you didn't, you were heading for the curb awfully quickly because you had to get the fronts to spin before it would start sending meaningful torque to the back wheels. Try the same exercise in an Audi with Torsen or a Subaru to see how much better it is at involving the rear wheels.
      That said, maybe the new Haldex IV system (especially with torque vectoring) is better, but there was certainly a lot of room to improve before they can call Haldex a performance AWD system.

    23. #48
      Senior Member PowerDubs's Avatar
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      Re: FV-QR (Professor Gascan)

      Yea...my astrovan work truck is RWD but will understeer in a turn too.. chasis setup plays a huge role there.
      -Josh

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    24. #49
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      Re: FV-QR (Professor Gascan)

      Prof: I'd say that had a lot to do with the set up of the TT. My R32 will swing the back end out if I goose it in snow.
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    25. #50
      Senior Member PowerDubs's Avatar
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      Re: FV-QR (Doedrums)

      My R32 will swing the back end out if I goose it anywhere!!
      -Josh

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