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    1. #26
      And we didn't push our own agenda with all the BS stories about Trump that were never founded? So the MSM and then-current govt didn't try to sway the votes at all? Everything they threw at Trump didn't stick...

      Until factual evidence is shown that Trump had direct connections with the Russians to sway the election, this is not important and no one should really care... I mean, how long have we been meddling with other country's elections? Now that someone did it to us we should be outraged? Naw...

    2. #27
      Senior Member WineBasket2.0t's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Chris659 View Post
      And we didn't push our own agenda with all the BS stories about Trump that were never founded? So the MSM and then-current govt didn't try to sway the votes at all? Everything they threw at Trump didn't stick...

      Until factual evidence is shown that Trump had direct connections with the Russians to sway the election, this is not important and no one should really care... I mean, how long have we been meddling with other country's elections? Now that someone did it to us we should be outraged? Naw...
      This is how it begins. Indifference to a candidate surrounding themselves with tainted aides and staff. They maybe didn't get at Trump but they got to the top people in his campaign. In like Flynn... oh wait that one's true too.

      Once Russia knows the murricans haz the dumbz and will listen to their fabricated rhetoric they won't simply stop.
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    3. #28
      Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      Slow down there cowboy. Don't put words in my mouth. You are basically saying all of the accusations cost HRC the election, and I disagree with that. Did it help? Of course not, but many liberals despised her so much that they flat out refused to vote for here after the DNC choose her over Bernie. That's a fact. You can keep all of your other flaming mumbojumbo to yourself, it doesn't apply to me.

      I'd consider myself liberal leaning, and sure as hell didn't want to vote for Hillary or Bernie. The whole situation was a farce to me. For the first time, I chose to write in a candidate for president.
      I said "Remove all the leaked document carp and HRC would have had much more support at election time."

      That wasn't just aimed at liberals, democrats, etc.
      Voters just got tired of all that carp.
      I know I was.
      So yes, I really do think HRC would have had much more support before the election without the flow of leaked emails and resulting circus.
      Not sure why you think that's such a crazy thing to say.
      Did I want HRC as president? No.
      But I would have chosen her in a heartbeat over DJT just because she knows how politics and foreign relations works.
      The oval office is not a great place to have on the job training.
      "Sometimes, I have a sudden urge to fart on this chair."

    4. #29
      Senior Member patrikman's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Chris659 View Post
      And we didn't push our own agenda with all the BS stories about Trump that were never founded? So the MSM and then-current govt didn't try to sway the votes at all? Everything they threw at Trump didn't stick...

      Until factual evidence is shown that Trump had direct connections with the Russians to sway the election, this is not important and no one should really care... I mean, how long have we been meddling with other country's elections? Now that someone did it to us we should be outraged? Naw...
      What sort of factual evidence do you need? A tweet from Donnie himself? Or would that be fakenews too?
      Quote Originally Posted by Elbows View Post
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    5. #30
      Senior Member patrikman's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I said "Remove all the leaked document carp and HRC would have had much more support at election time."

      That wasn't just aimed at liberals, democrats, etc.
      Voters just got tired of all that carp.
      I know I was.
      So yes, I really do think HRC would have had much more support before the election without the flow of leaked emails and resulting circus.
      Not sure why you think that's such a crazy thing to say.
      Did I want HRC as president? No.
      But I would have chosen her in a heartbeat over DJT just because she knows how politics and foreign relations works.
      The oval office is not a great place to have on the job training.
      It felt as if all of that was directed at me, I didn't mean to be so defensive.
      Quote Originally Posted by Elbows View Post
      Igor Natan Segala...that beautiful bastard. I made out with him one time behind a Red Lobster in Mookala, Wisconsin - on a bet. Little did he know that the simple kiss and $7.48 would lead to life-changing consequences. That was before the war, before this all happened. (stares out over the nuclear wasteland)
      Support Your Local Homebrewery

    6. #31
      Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Chris659 View Post
      Until factual evidence is shown that Trump had direct connections with the Russians to sway the election, this is not important and no one should really care.
      Did you express the same opinion on accusations directed at HRC and President Obama?
      I think any US citizen should care very much if their elected president has any previous ties to foreign nations.
      Especially a President that "breaks new ground" in how they handle known potential conflicts of interest.
      "Sometimes, I have a sudden urge to fart on this chair."

    7. #32
      Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      It felt as if all of that was directed at me, I didn't mean to be so defensive.
      Ok.

      FWIW- I really and truly do hope and pray that President Trump (and administration) makes wise decisions.
      I don't want President Trump to be a failure, or to make huge mistakes that end up hurting average people.
      I don't care about his political party, or want to get into that "we need to make sure he can't get anything done" carp.
      We all know how well that strategy worked under President Obama.
      But I also have a sinking feeling that he is a ticking time-bomb considering he was never in politics before now so he didn't have to keep his nose clean (or at least destroy the evidence).
      "Sometimes, I have a sudden urge to fart on this chair."

    8. #33
      Member BetterByDesign's Avatar
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      How is this supposedly done?

      What exactly is the "framework" provided by this think tank?

      What is the "path" that Putin supposedly asked for?

      How was it influenced?

      ______________________________________________

    9. #34
      Member 88c900t's Avatar
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      If there were really some amazing revelations about the Trump campaign-Russian times, they would be on the front page of every news network. I quickly glanced at CNN and NYT, nothing.

      These "Russia rigged the US election" allegations might be slightly believable if people (looking at you, CNN and you senile old ass McCain) weren't basing it off the unsubstantiated, debunked and hilariously fake "golden shower" dossier that first surfaced on 4chan, of all places. Even Buzzfeed, the first who wrote a story about it didn't present it as confirmed evidence but rather with copious amounts of skepticism.

      Could Russia have hacked the DNC? Sure. Could John Podesta use a password that a child could hack?

      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      I don't agree with that.
      I agree with you, for other (possibly mutual) reasons.

      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I said "Remove all the leaked document carp and HRC would have had much more support at election time."
      Wrong- people had their minds made up well before any of the leaks happened.

      HRC was simply a very poor candidate.
      -Experienced politician loses out to an inexperienced politician with Hussein as a middle name, barely wins against an elderly socialist, loses to an egotistical real-estate developer with zero political or military experience.
      -Referred to one-quarter of the country as a "basket of deplorables". Amazingly, she actually admitted making a mistake
      -Completely blind to populist blue collar uprising (a fair bit of Bernies support as well).
      -Speaks in a condescending, finger-wagging tone, she even admits that she "engenders bad reactions from people".
      -Ignored critical parts of the country (last time she was in WI was April)
      -More of her ads were negative attacks instead of policy, compared to Trump's ads.
      -Her campaign slogans were empty platitudes based on virtue signaling and identity politics. People are tired of identity politics.
      -Was in poor health at times.
      -Continued to have a "It wasn't my fault I lost" attitude after the election (even now), had an "I'm entitled to it!" attitude before it.

      Here are some highlights from the new book Shattered: Inside Hillary Clinton's doomed campaign-

      https://www.axios.com/inside-the-hil...366467487.html

      Quote Originally Posted by jnm2.0t View Post
      Once Russia knows the murricans haz the dumbz and will listen to their fabricated rhetoric they won't simply stop.
      Leit it go, honey. You haven't shut up about "Those stupid murricans in flyover-land" yet and it's been months. Fantasize about your Calexit wet dream instead.
      Last edited by 88c900t; 04-20-2017 at 07:19 AM.
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    10. #35
      Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by 88c900t View Post
      If there were really some amazing revelations about the Trump campaign-Russian times, they would be on the front page of every news network. I quickly glanced at CNN and NYT, nothing.
      Yes, there does seem to be little actual meat to the story linked.
      As I said before, we expect countries to try and guide the politics of other countries to their favor.
      The issue here is concern over Trump election committee/administration communication with said country.
      If it truly is baseless, then it will go away.
      But that doesn't mean the concern should be ignored until we have irrefutable proof.
      That's not how politics works..


      Wrong- people had their minds made up well before any of the leaks happened.
      I didn't realize you spoke for the people.
      And I could just as easily compile a longer list of reasons why DJT was a terrible candidate.
      It proves nothing other than I think long winded posts makes me sound more right.
      "Sometimes, I have a sudden urge to fart on this chair."

    11. #36
      Quote Originally Posted by 88c900t View Post
      If there were really some amazing revelations about the Trump campaign-Russian times, they would be on the front page of every news network. I quickly glanced at CNN and NYT, nothing.

      These "Russia rigged the US election" allegations might be slightly believable if people (looking at you, CNN and you senile old ass McCain) weren't basing it off the unsubstantiated, debunked and hilariously fake "golden shower" dossier that first surfaced on 4chan, of all places. Even Buzzfeed, the first who wrote a story about it didn't present it as confirmed evidence but rather with copious amounts of skepticism.

      Could Russia have hacked the DNC? Sure. Could John Podesta use a password that a child could hack?



      I agree with you, for other (possibly mutual) reasons.



      Wrong- people had their minds made up well before any of the leaks happened.

      HRC was simply a very poor candidate.
      -Experienced politician loses out to an inexperienced politician with Hussein as a middle name, barely wins against an elderly socialist, loses to an egotistical real-estate developer with zero political or military experience.
      -Referred to one-quarter of the country as a "basket of deplorables". Amazingly, she actually admitted making a mistake
      -Completely blind to populist blue collar uprising (a fair bit of Bernies support as well).
      -Speaks in a condescending, finger-wagging tone, she even admits that she "engenders bad reactions from people".
      -Ignored critical parts of the country (last time she was in WI was April)
      -More of her ads were negative attacks instead of policy, compared to Trump's ads.
      -Her campaign slogans were empty platitudes based on virtue signaling and identity politics. People are tired of identity politics.
      -Was in poor health at times.
      -Continued to have a "It wasn't my fault I lost" attitude after the election (even now), had an "I'm entitled to it!" attitude before it.

      Here are some highlights from the new book Shattered: Inside Hillary Clinton's doomed campaign-

      https://www.axios.com/inside-the-hil...366467487.html



      Leit it go, honey. You haven't shut up about "Those stupid murricans in flyover-land" yet and it's been months. Fantasize about your Calexit wet dream instead.
      Gold star all the way. People like him need to get out like the Hollywood set promised to do. There's the door, follow the undocumented. Bye.

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    12. #37
      Member 88c900t's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I didn't realize you spoke for the people.
      Don't be a pedant.


      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      And I could just as easily compile a longer list of reasons why DJT was a terrible candidate.
      It proves nothing other than I think long winded posts makes me sound more right.
      Go right ahead, don't care.

      My point is, the vast majority of people who already planned to vote for Clinton, or Trump were not affected by the leaks. A few undecided/apolitical/uninterested people may have been swayed, but so what. How does my "long winded post" make you sound more right?? If you want to refute a part of my post, do so.
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    13. #38
      Member 88c900t's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by NJMKIV View Post
      Gold star all the way. People like him need to get out like the Hollywood set promised to do. There's the door, follow the undocumented. Bye.
      Sorry, but I don't know who you are referring to from my post, and what Hollywood has to do with it
      Typical forum guy with busted third-hand cars.
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    14. #39
      Quote Originally Posted by 88c900t View Post
      Sorry, but I don't know who you are referring to from my post, and what Hollywood has to do with it
      Simple, he hates the supposed debased intelligence of "murricans" then go where he is happy. Pretty election Hollywood starlet megalomaniacs had also pledged to leave but apparently none have.

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    15. #40
      Member 88c900t's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by NJMKIV View Post
      Simple, he hates the supposed debased intelligence of "murricans" then go where he is happy. Pretty election Hollywood starlet megalomaniacs had also pledged to leave but apparently none have.

      Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
      Oh, you are referring to jmn2.0t, got it.
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    16. #41
      Member 2.DOH.'s Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      The whole situation was a farce to me. For the first time, I chose to write in a candidate for president.
      Did Governor Walker send you a thank you note?





































      I'M KIDDING!......put down the lead pipe...
      ...

    17. #42
      Quote Originally Posted by VadGTI View Post
      Actively planned to sway the election.
      The soviets have been involved in every US campaign in some way since since people like Harry Hopkins and Alger Hiss worked under FDR all the way through to their financial support of Gus Hall.

      The idea that the russians wouldn't participate in US campaigns would be naïve. Of course, the NYT and CNN also push stories, so the idea that russians would is sort of anti-climactic.

      The charge that lacks any basis is that "russians hacked the election" itself. If there is evidence of election fraud, we should see it.
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    18. #43
      Member Tornado2dr's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post

      The charge that lacks any basis is that "russians hacked the election" itself. If there is evidence of election fraud, we should see it.
      You should be able to see past the "hacked" misnomer and see that if they were able to plant many seeds of disinformation that swayed voters would were unable or unwilling to investigate further - that ability is a problem.

      To those who claim that such seeds, if planted, never amounted to anything anyways - yes, and the whole industry of advertisement exists only to waste dollars, not to sway people towards brands, ideas, or positions.



      This whole "oh we've done it for years". Yes, that's a "no ****, sherlock" moment. Much like most aspects of US Foreign Policy such as sending aid (lethal and nonlethal), sending cash, sending bombs, sending troops - when WE do it is because it is in our interests. Why would another country do it? That's right, class - it is in THEIR interests. Allowing a foreign entity to exercise their interests within our borders and electoral process should not be an issue taken lightly.
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    19. #44
      Member 88c900t's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado2dr View Post
      You should be able to see past the "hacked" misnomer and see that if they were able to plant many seeds of disinformation that swayed voters would were unable or unwilling to investigate further - that ability is a problem.
      Which seeds of disinformation are you referring to?



      Quote Originally Posted by 2.DOH. View Post
      Did Governor Walker send you a thank you note?


      I'M KIDDING!......put down the lead pipe...
      That's funny knowing his opinion towards him.
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    20. #45
      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado2dr View Post
      You should be able to see past the "hacked" misnomer and see that if they were able to plant many seeds of disinformation that swayed voters would were unable or unwilling to investigate further - that ability is a problem.

      To those who claim that such seeds, if planted, never amounted to anything anyways - yes, and the whole industry of advertisement exists only to waste dollars, not to sway people towards brands, ideas, or positions.
      I would encourage you not to look past false "hacking" accusations. Those accusations are also lodged by people who see those false accusations as serving their own interests.

      The problem you reference, foreign influence in our media, has two very different facets. One is misinformation. Whether misinformation comes from Russians or Dan Rather or Glenn Beck or the New York Times, that misinformation is problematic.

      The other problem, the one to which HRC's campaign objected more strenuously, was not disinformation, but apparently accurate information the campaign preferred not to disclose. The comments within the party apparatus regarding Bernie supporters, Catholics and racial minorities likely did the campaign little good, but it wasn't actually disinformation.

      This whole "oh we've done it for years". Yes, that's a "no ****, sherlock" moment. Much like most aspects of US Foreign Policy such as sending aid (lethal and nonlethal), sending cash, sending bombs, sending troops - when WE do it is because it is in our interests.
      When BHO's campaign apparatus interfered in Israeli elections, was that in our national interest?
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    21. #46
      Member 88c900t's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      The problem you reference, foreign influence in our media, has two very different facets. One is misinformation. Whether misinformation comes from Russians or Dan Rather or Glenn Beck or the New York Times, that misinformation is problematic.
      Yeah, the first part of Toronado's post is what I find problematic. Who exactly gets to define what "misinformation" is? Will it be like the establishment media defining what "fake news" is?
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    22. #47
      Senior Member WineBasket2.0t's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by 88c900t View Post
      Yeah, the first part of Toronado's post is what I find problematic. Who exactly gets to define what "misinformation" is? Will it be like the establishment media defining what "fake news" is?
      Um, what? Truthiness gets to decide. How is a definition of misinformation not clear to you? It's in the dictionary, false or misleading information. Murrica is going to hell in a hand basket if people are honestly asking themselves if something that's fake is actually misinformation or just an alternative fact. If something is not true it is misinformation.

      Remember the whole pizza parlor fiasco? That's misinformation. But to some it's unfortunately a lead worth following up on.

      And I think a better word than misinformation on this topic is disinformation. Mis indicates it's not necessarily intentional, dis is.
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    23. #48
      Senior Member WineBasket2.0t's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado2dr View Post
      This whole "oh we've done it for years". Yes, that's a "no ****, sherlock" moment. Much like most aspects of US Foreign Policy such as sending aid (lethal and nonlethal), sending cash, sending bombs, sending troops - when WE do it is because it is in our interests. Why would another country do it? That's right, class - it is in THEIR interests. Allowing a foreign entity to exercise their interests within our borders and electoral process should not be an issue taken lightly.
      It would be interesting to find out what, if any, kinds of subvert campaigns the US has waged on stable developed countries political process, in particular the G8 type ones. It's one thing to 'meddle' in an Iraqi election where they're falling apart at the seams, it's another to work covertly to sway say the British elections.
      I'm just a regular Joe, with a regular job. I'm your average white, suburbanite slob.

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    24. #49
      Member 88c900t's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by jnm2.0t View Post
      Um, what? Truthiness gets to decide. How is a definition of misinformation not clear to you? It's in the dictionary, false or misleading information. Murrica is going to hell in a hand basket if people are honestly asking themselves if something that's fake is actually misinformation or just an alternative fact. If something is not true it is misinformation.

      Remember the whole pizza parlor fiasco? That's misinformation. But to some it's unfortunately a lead worth following up on.
      Way to miss the point.
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    25. #50
      Member Tornado2dr's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      I would encourage you not to look past false "hacking" accusations. Those accusations are also lodged by people who see those false accusations as serving their own interests.
      Much like our CIC's tweets about wiretapping. So I look past them in general as lazy and self serving.


      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      The problem you reference, foreign influence in our media, has two very different facets. One is misinformation. Whether misinformation comes from Russians or Dan Rather or Glenn Beck or the New York Times, that misinformation is problematic.

      The other problem, the one to which HRC's campaign objected more strenuously, was not disinformation, but apparently accurate information the campaign preferred not to disclose. The comments within the party apparatus regarding Bernie supporters, Catholics and racial minorities likely did the campaign little good, but it wasn't actually disinformation.
      No doubt. But I think it is just as fair to scratch your head and wonder why people are bombarded by false accounts of pizzagating, strokes, wild accusations of murderous tendencies coming out of somebodies basement in russia, that are then used as "sources are saying" by various nonsense outlets - why is it happening, how do we reduce


      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      When BHO's campaign apparatus interfered in Israeli elections, was that in our national interest?
      On some levels, yes I can get there. I don't particularly like it because I don't really think we should be doing that with close allies and "friends"...but honestly the admin's goal was to get friendly people in office that they could better influence - which is the goal of most foreign policy. We want what WE want. What the others want is secondary to our interests.

      Now - would I agree if the djt people did the same thing? Maybe, maybe not. It's pretty easy to argue that the DJT agenda isn't the agenda of most americans, since he didn't carry a majority of voters.
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio!
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