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    1. #51
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      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      When BHO's campaign apparatus interfered in Israeli elections, was that in our national interest?
      what was the interference? was it covert and spreading of lies meant to deceive, or was it campaigning? far as I know we gave a local campaign a bunch of money. that's not the same.

      also, Israel is something of our step kid, they're entirely reliant on us even though they aren't ours. i think in the case of Israel we should be able to have a larger say in what they're doing to make sure they don't get way out of line and drag us into a war.

    2. #52
      Member Tornado2dr's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by jnm2.0t View Post
      what was the interference? was it covert and spreading of lies meant to deceive, or was it campaigning? far as I know we gave a local campaign a bunch of money. that's not the same.

      also, Israel is something of our step kid, they're entirely reliant on us even though they aren't ours. i think in the case of Israel we should be able to have a larger say in what they're doing to make sure they don't get way out of line and drag us into a war.
      Agreed on the latter.

      To the former, it was an ngo or non profit that had money associated with both obamas campaign funds AND taxpayer dollars. They were trying to upset Netanyahu with targeted contributions I think, with some back channel directions from then-current Obama aides if I remember right. 2013?


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    3. #53
      40 Year Old Madonna Fan patrikman's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by 2.DOH. View Post
      Did Governor Walker send you a thank you note?
      Quote Originally Posted by Code Red! View Post
      Why does a guy trying to shove a water bottle up his ass have anything to do with the Bay area and helping it sustain itsel.....wait nevermind.

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    4. #54
      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado2dr View Post

      No doubt. But I think it is just as fair to scratch your head and wonder why people are bombarded by false accounts of pizzagating, strokes, wild accusations of murderous tendencies coming out of somebodies basement in russia, that are then used as "sources are saying" by various nonsense outlets - why is it happening, how do we reduce .
      Did anyone in his right mind (I don't mean that colloquially) believe that HRC as running a prostitution ring out of a pizza joint? Do you really think that reducing that kind of story is an important matter of federal policy? Is it remotely plausible that a bunch of voters in states HRC pretended didn't exist thought "Hillary was my girl but not if she's a pizza chomping madame!!"

      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado2dr View Post
      To the former, it was an ngo or non profit that had money associated with both obamas campaign funds AND taxpayer dollars. They were trying to upset Netanyahu with targeted contributions I think, with some back channel directions from then-current Obama aides if I remember right. 2013?
      Adding insult, several hundred thousand dollars came from the State Department within which there has been arabist sympathy historically. For Israelis, this was literally participation in the campaign process by their enemies.
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    5. #55
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      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      Did anyone in his right mind (I don't mean that colloquially) believe that HRC as running a prostitution ring out of a pizza joint? Do you really think that reducing that kind of story is an important matter of federal policy? Is it remotely plausible that a bunch of voters in states HRC pretended didn't exist thought "Hillary was my girl but not if she's a pizza chomping madame!!"
      Someone showed up the pizza joint with a rifle planning to investigate for themselves.

      I was inundated with death threats, sometimes many a day. Comet’s Facebook and Yelp pages were flooded with obscene “reviews.” The restaurant’s phone rang off the hook, with people calling and screaming at the hosts. First, we answered only local area codes, then unplugged the phones.

      Online, we were labeled as criminals — or worse. They posted our pictures, links to personal social media, even our home addresses. Our community of food runners, hosts, bussers, waiters, customers, artists we display, bands that performed, my godchildren, surrounding businesses and my mother all were harassed by self-proclaimed “investigators.”

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      Alex Jones and the other nutjobs wouldn't continue putting forth nonsense unless people were buying into it.

      My guess is you will dismiss these people as not being of right mind and thus pizzagate was no harm no foul.
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    6. #56
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post

      My guess is you will dismiss these people as not being of right mind and thus pizzagate was no harm no foul.
      Your guess lacks insight.

      It is a harm to be slandered and harassed. If you think a fellow who hears this and shows up with a rifle to liberate the putative sex workers is in is right mind, feel free to provide the evidence.

      If you think Pizzagate turned the election, feel free to explain how that worked.
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    7. #57
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      Quote Originally Posted by Chris659 View Post
      And we didn't push our own agenda with all the BS stories about Trump that were never founded? So the MSM and then-current govt didn't try to sway the votes at all? Everything they threw at Trump didn't stick...

      Until factual evidence is shown that Trump had direct connections with the Russians to sway the election, this is not important and no one should really care... I mean, how long have we been meddling with other country's elections? Now that someone did it to us we should be outraged? Naw...
      The issue isn't so much that the Russians blasted the internet with fake news and hacked the DNC. It's that the Trump campaign actually helped them do so, and the reasons why they did. Because building a rock solid case takes time it will be a while before everything is out in the open, but so far several members of the House Intelligence Committee, several anonymous sources within the intel community, and many foreign intel agencies have said there's more than circumstantial evidence that Trump's staff was working directly with the Russians to sway the election. The NSA has recordings of Michael Flynn's conversations with the Russians, most likely involving quid pro quo deals regarding sanctions, and has been tracking Carter Page for almost a year because he's been meeting with Russian spies. If you follow the trail of what we know publicly, it doesn't look good at all for Trump (read up on Felix Sater if you get bored one day). It was bad enough when Nixon had his staff break into the DNC offices to meddle with the election, but now we have a guy who had a hostile foreign power do the same thing on a larger scale. When you include Trump and his staff's myriad financial ties to shady Russians, this is probably the biggest political story in U.S. history. To say that no one should care is exactly how we end up with morons like Trump in office to begin with.

    8. #58
      40 Year Old Madonna Fan patrikman's Avatar
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      Rex Tillerson should not be employed by our government, in my opinion it's an obvious conflict of interest.
      Last edited by patrikman; 04-20-2017 at 12:22 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by Code Red! View Post
      Why does a guy trying to shove a water bottle up his ass have anything to do with the Bay area and helping it sustain itsel.....wait nevermind.

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    9. #59
      Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      It is a harm to be slandered and harassed. If you think a fellow who hears this and shows up with a rifle to liberate the putative sex workers is in is right mind, feel free to provide the evidence.
      I think that was just an example used of how quickly fake news can spread.
      Considering how quickly fake news can be spread by tweets and walls, that makes finding the actual source of fake news so you can sue for slander rather difficult.
      Wasn't there a story about a company that just web published fake news for revenue clicks, and how it was (for some reason) much easier to spread right wing fake news than left wing fake news? Maybe because the right wing has a few common hot topics that grabs lots of attention versus the left that is an unorganized mess by comparison.

      If you think Pizzagate turned the election, feel free to explain how that worked.
      Again- I think that was just an example of a general fake news social media trend.

      It's too bad there isn't an easy to way to differentiate between honest concern over a news topic, and a blind willingness to spread anything negative about a certain person or political group without even the slightest concern for it's source or basis in reality.
      Both sides do it.
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    10. #60
      It doesn't matter when you're talking about a group that prescribes to "alternative facts". That group has demonstrated this over and again. Emails, lock her up! Then your hero hires someone actually convicted of it.

      Psshhh. Just stop pretending you have any moral backbone and be done with it. Stand for your opinions without trying to be some crybaby evangelical with a perpetual crutch of fake morality.

    11. #61
      Member vwtool's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      ...If you think Pizzagate turned the election, feel free to explain how that worked.
      First of all, you get the details of Pizzagate wrong. It wasn't just sex with prostitutes, it was alleged to be a link to a hidden world of democratic pedophilia, including a private sex island owned by Jeffrey Epstein where the Clintons and all their friends went to have sex with children. Pizzagate didn't turn the election, but the mountain of right-wing, anti-Hillary hysteria based on 'facts' only slightly less ridiculous sure had an effect. For every voter smart enough to see through Pizzagate, there were probably 100 who thought Benghazi! was a perfectly reasonable reason for voting against her.

    12. #62
      Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
      evangelical fake morality.
      This is why religion has no place in politics.

      Politicians simply MUST lie to get elected.
      Nobody wants to hear that complicated problems require difficult long term solutions (most voters are myopic narcissists, unfortunately).
      So any successful politician knows to lie and say they have quick simple solutions to all the complicated problems.

      If you have to lie to get elected, then you really can't campaign on moral or ethical ground.
      "Sometimes, I have a sudden urge to fart on this chair."

    13. #63
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post

      It's too bad there isn't an easy to way to differentiate between honest concern over a news topic, and a blind willingness to spread anything negative about a certain person or political group without even the slightest concern for it's source or basis in reality.
      I agree, but this isn't new. Walter Duranty was justifying Stalin's atrocities 80 years ago, and Dan Rather tried to influence an election with a story based on a forgery. The speed and anonymity are greater, but the problem appears evergreen.
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    14. #64
      Quote Originally Posted by vwtool View Post
      there were probably 100 who thought Benghazi! was a perfectly reasonable reason for voting against her.
      But, is that even a voter bloc that can be swayed? We're talking about people who buy into what a lot of normal people consider crap.

      While a level headed Republican would still have voted for him, at least a level headed one would rely on their unchangeable beliefs in pro-life, supposed smaller government and taxation, non-belief in climate change, pro military, etc....

      I know both sides fight tooth and nail for those 100 people, but both sides need to figure out how to eliminate those 100 by having more solid and palatable platforms to begin with.

      We're deciding elections based on 100 morons who'd vote for either side based on a bald faced childish lie.

    15. #65
      Member vwtool's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      I agree, but this isn't new...
      A partial truth concealing a bigger lie: It is new that one party has been absolutely taken over by a complete lack of interest in "truth" or "facts" at all. Your inability to be honest about this explains a lot of your misunderstandings.

    16. #66
      Quote Originally Posted by vwtool View Post
      A partial truth concealing a bigger lie: It is new that one party has been absolutely taken over by a complete lack of interest in "truth" or "facts" at all.
      As democrat defenses of Alger Hiss and WJC demonstrate, you are wrong, again.

      That you wrap your inferior analysis in sloppy accusation betrays your lack of confidence in your point.
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    17. #67
      Member BetterByDesign's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by 88c900t View Post
      If there were really some amazing revelations about the Trump campaign-Russian times, they would be on the front page of every news network. I quickly glanced at CNN and NYT, nothing.
      Hot air is hot air.

      As a Russian diplomat kindly commented, these allegations by Americans only serve to insult.... other Americans.
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    18. #68
      Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      As democrat defenses of Alger Hiss and WJC demonstrate, you are wrong, again.

      That you wrap your inferior analysis in sloppy accusation betrays your lack of confidence in your point.
      Much of the liberal concern over Republican motives involves things they actually say, while much of the conservative concern over Democrat motives involves things they did not actually say.

      I realize that's a gross generalization, but I have seen a strong trend for years now.
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    19. #69
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      Quote Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
      But, is that even a voter bloc that can be swayed? We're talking about people who buy into what a lot of normal people consider crap.

      While a level headed Republican would still have voted for him, at least a level headed one would rely on their unchangeable beliefs in pro-life, supposed smaller government and taxation, non-belief in climate change, pro military, etc....

      I know both sides fight tooth and nail for those 100 people, but both sides need to figure out how to eliminate those 100 by having more solid and palatable platforms to begin with.

      We're deciding elections based on 100 morons who'd vote for either side based on a bald faced childish lie.
      This won’t change, unless they implement an IQ Test and only those with a specific number or higher are allowed to vote. Neither party would go for this. Look how the left gets in a tizzy about people having to show proof who they are in order to vote.

    20. #70
      Quote Originally Posted by CruznMalibu View Post
      This won’t change, unless they implement an IQ Test and only those with a specific number or higher are allowed to vote. Neither party would go for this. Look how the left gets in a tizzy about people having to show proof who they are in order to vote.
      Well the answer is in your post, believe it or not and it isn't a far fetched thing.......intelligence......driven by a proper education.

      Why on Earth would Republicans NOT want better education even when it is directed at their own red state or rural counties outside of the rich suburban areas that drive liberal turnout and votes?

      Ask yourself that.

      NC was called the Rip van Winkle state for a reason. It's historical, it's true, it's documented American history. And there was an agenda (be it religious, political, or otherwise) to keep people uninformed or misinformed at every level. And that same concept lives on today.

      Which is easier for a less intelligent person to grasp?
      A: Here, look at all this complex data and facts and peer reviewed studies corroborating climate change driven by humans.
      B: You don't believe all of that mumbo jumbo do you? Shoot, just having more body heat from more people probably has more to do with it.

    21. #71
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      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      Much of the liberal concern over Republican motives involves things they actually say, while much of the conservative concern over Democrat motives involves things they did not actually say.

      I realize that's a gross generalization, but I have seen a strong trend for years now.
      On average, Clinton voters thought 58% of fake news headlines were accurate, compared to 86% of Trump voters.

      There was also a really nice neural network chart of social media followers which showed that DT voters tend to keep to themselves as an echo chamber exchanging these stories where HRC were much more diverse. I will see if I can find it.

      Together this is largely why the plot of the Russians worked, DT supporters ate it up and passed it around in the targeted 'murricanville areas.

      Edit... MIT did it, so it's probably disinformation

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      Last edited by WhineMCABasket2.0t; 04-20-2017 at 01:19 PM.

    22. #72
      Member VadGTI's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by 88c900t View Post
      If there were really some amazing revelations about the Trump campaign-Russian times, they would be on the front page of every news network. I quickly glanced at CNN and NYT, nothing.

      These "Russia rigged the US election" allegations might be slightly believable if people (looking at you, CNN and you senile old ass McCain) weren't basing it off the unsubstantiated, debunked and hilariously fake "golden shower" dossier that first surfaced on 4chan, of all places. Even Buzzfeed, the first who wrote a story about it didn't present it as confirmed evidence but rather with copious amounts of skepticism.

      The same "fake" dossier that didn't actually originate on 4chan (that was fake news), the same one used to secure a FISA warrant to spy on Carter Page, and the same one that the FBI corroborated at least in part so far?

      Right. Fake news.

      Remember Michael Cohen? "I've never been to Prague!" Well, yes, but...

      ...

      Mr Oronov is reported to have set up a secret meeting between Donald Trump’s personal lawyer Michael Cohen – to whom he had family ties - and Russian officials where a “peace plan” is said to have been hatched to give Russian President Vladimir Putin control of the Crimea.

      Mr Cohen is understood to have an extensive network of personal and business relationships in the Ukranian-American community – and his associates included Mr Oronov, a partner in the ethanol business the lawyer’s brother, Bryan, set up in Ukraine.

      The “peace plan” meeting brought together Mr Artemenko, Mr Cohen and Felix Sater, an American-Russian long-time business associate of Mr Trump who is reported to have ties to the Russian mafia.

      ...
      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7612866.html

      Technicalities.
      Last edited by VadGTI; 04-20-2017 at 01:56 PM.
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    23. #73
      In what dumb ****ing universe do people live where they don't think Russians influenced the US election process?

      This **** is happening all over again in France.

      On that note, inb4l.

    24. #74
      Member GreenandChrome's Avatar
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      Obviously it was all the Russians. It had nothing to do with the distaste that many American's had for these two:

      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Or some other government-sponsored illegal wiretapping app
      I find your answer vague and unconvincing.
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    25. #75
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      Quote Originally Posted by GreenandChrome View Post
      Obviously it was all the Russians. It had nothing to do with the distaste that many American's had for these two:
      Wonder why the "conservatives" always think all or nothing. Played a part does not = sole reason.

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