General Motors halts Venezuela operations as authorities seize plant - Page 3
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    1. #51
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I didn't realize it was direct injection.
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    2. #52
      Member GoHomePossum's Avatar
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      Venezuelan citizens complain about their government and say it's "not their fault" but aren't the citizens at least partially responsible for who ends up in government? There must have been a series of decisions made by residents that helped things end up the way they are...
      I now have an InstaGram: emmettlodge

    3. #53
      Quote Originally Posted by GoHomePossum View Post
      Venezuelan citizens complain about their government and say it's "not their fault" but aren't the citizens at least partially responsible for who ends up in government? There must have been a series of decisions made by residents that helped things end up the way they are...
      Not at this point. The ruling party lost by huge margins in the last election, but they stacked the supreme court with loyalists who nullified everything the legislature did. They also refused to hold a presidential election even though the requirements for an early election were met.

    4. #54
      Member GoHomePossum's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      Not at this point. The ruling party lost by huge margins in the last election, but they stacked the supreme court with loyalists who nullified everything the legislature did. They also refused to hold a presidential election even though the requirements for an early election were met.
      I'm not up on my Venzuelan history...why wouldn't someone intervene? Was there ever a military coup?
      I now have an InstaGram: emmettlodge

    5. #55
      Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by GoHomePossum View Post
      I'm not up on my Venzuelan history...why wouldn't someone intervene? Was there ever a military coup?
      Reading is hard.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela#20th_century
      "Sometimes, I have a sudden urge to fart on this chair."

    6. #56
      Quote Originally Posted by Aonarch View Post


      Overthrow time.
      Quote Originally Posted by GoHomePossum View Post
      I'm not up on my Venzuelan history...why wouldn't someone intervene? Was there ever a military coup?
      It was tried in 2002 and failed.

      Quote Originally Posted by SeatIbiza1.8T View Post
      WTF? -I am Venezuelan, I had to flee my country, start from scratch in another country like millions of my countrymen/women, and we deserve it?!

      80%+ of the country opposes the government, and they deserve it? -Dictatorships are f%cked up, and they should be stopped before they turn into North Korea or Iran, which are world threats due to foreign negligence for decades upon decades...

      I Really, I hope you never have to go through what Venezuela and all Venezuelans have gone/are going through.
      Indeed. You don't bear blame for your country screwing you. 80% of the country may oppose the Chavez/Maduro regime, and Chevez certainly benefitted from a lot of voter fraud in 2000, but the popularity of their sort of malignant nonsense in the 1990s invited this tragedy.

      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      Chavez had obvious faults, but at least he had the intelligence necessary to keep the country functional. Maduro, on the other hand,
      Chavez set Venezuela on its course of decline with nationalisation of the petroleum industry and political control of media outlets. Then he tightened the noose with trade controls.

      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post

      Things are going to come to a head soon. The whole point of socialism is supposed to include everyone having their basic needs provided for. If people are starving because of hyperinflation and resource hoarding, you've done ****ed up, and the pitchforks will be coming.
      The point of the Chavez/Maduro program is to consolidate power in the party and eliminate potential sources of effective opposition, like independent industry and media. It's the same program instituted by Chavez' marxist friends throughout the world over the last century, and it's no mistake. Anticipatory liquidation of party and class enemies is an explicit element in their doctrine.

      SeatIbiza, I hope things turn around down there, but history indicates that destroyed societies are very difficult to reconstitute.
      Unofficial Feelings Manager for OT. http://www.npboards.com/index.php

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    7. #57
      Member GoHomePossum's Avatar
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      So wait, Chavez was elected in 1998! So who elected the guy if he was so unpopular?
      I now have an InstaGram: emmettlodge

    8. #58
      Member George Bluth's Avatar
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      Hilarious. Love it.

    9. #59
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      Quote Originally Posted by George Bluth View Post
      Hilarious. Love it.
      At least no one can call them "Government Motors"

    10. #60
      Quote Originally Posted by GoHomePossum View Post
      So wait, Chavez was elected in 1998! So who elected the guy if he was so unpopular?
      SeatIbiza's point is that he and his successor became less popular so that they are now widely opposed. Whether they really oppose Maduro politically or whether they are just grouchy from hunger might be a close call.

      The Newshour on PBS did a spot on Venezuela more than a decade ago and concluded that this was a government that rigged elections and controlled media, but that may also be (at that time) genuinely popular, something like the way germans and Hitler. Sure, by Christmas of 1945 you couldn't find a german who would admit to having liked Hitler, but poll results may have been different in 1942.
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    11. #61
      Member GoHomePossum's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      SeatIbiza's point is that he and his successor became less popular so that they are now widely opposed. Whether they really oppose Maduro politically or whether they are just grouchy from hunger might be a close call.

      The Newshour on PBS did a spot on Venezuela more than a decade ago and concluded that this was a government that rigged elections and controlled media, but that may also be (at that time) genuinely popular, something like the way germans and Hitler. Sure, by Christmas of 1945 you couldn't find a german who would admit to having liked Hitler, but poll results may have been different in 1942.
      Now that you've mentioned Hitler as an analogy, the philosophical question becomes...did German citizens bear any responsibility...any at all!...for Hitler's rise to power?

      Because if they did, I don't think Vemezuelans who elected Chavez can just hold up their hands and say they had nothing to do at all with Venezuela's current situation.

      Which was my original ponderance.
      I now have an InstaGram: emmettlodge

    12. #62
      Quote Originally Posted by GoHomePossum View Post

      Because if they did, I don't think Vemezuelans who elected Chavez can just hold up their hands and say they had nothing to do at all with Venezuela's current situation.

      Which was my original ponderance.
      It's a fair question, but I think SeatIbiza took it personally, not as a general comment on the incompetence of venezuelan voters, the less than rock-solid stability of the venezuelan state, or the wisdom of yanking the german population straight from its kaiser to a universal suffrage that led them to replace a monarch with a runty austrian of low birth.

      To blame all venezuelans or all germans for the catastrophies visited upon them by their popular leaders suggests a foresight they didn't actually possess.
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    13. #63
      Quote Originally Posted by SeatIbiza1.8T View Post
      WTF? -I am Venezuelan, I had to flee my country, start from scratch in another country like millions of my countrymen/women, and we deserve it?!

      80%+ of the country opposes the government, and they deserve it? -Dictatorships are f%cked up, and they should be stopped before they turn into North Korea or Iran, which are world threats due to foreign negligence for decades upon decades...

      I Really, I hope you never have to go through what Venezuela and all Venezuelans have gone/are going through.

      PS: 2 young people were murdered yesterday by the Government.
      Your compatriots voted these morons in. You deserve it.

    14. #64
      Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Reisner View Post
      Your compatriots voted these morons in. You deserve it.
      That's like blaming Clinton voters for Trump being President.

    15. #65
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      Quote Originally Posted by Reisner View Post
      Your compatriots voted these morons in. You deserve it.
      The power of demagoguery and fear mongering against a population vulnerable to said psychological tools due to a particular circumstance is historic. Ask not only the Germans, but the Romans. Or the Turks today. Or Russians. Or North Koreans. Or French. Or British... and let's not forget the Americans.

      For sure there is responsibility for those who made the decision... the vote. Large catastrophes or failures are rarely the fault of one person. There's always accomplices of varying degrees of guilt, but it does begin with those lacking critical thinking skills. Lacking the discipline to control their emotional urges to knee jerk vs logically questioning the messenger.

    16. #66
      Member GoHomePossum's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      That's like blaming Clinton voters for Trump being President.
      Wait, we're not supposed to do that?
      I now have an InstaGram: emmettlodge

    17. #67
      Senior Member patrikman's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by GoHomePossum View Post
      Wait, we're not supposed to do that?
      Quote Originally Posted by Elbows View Post
      Igor Natan Segala...that beautiful bastard. I made out with him one time behind a Red Lobster in Mookala, Wisconsin - on a bet. Little did he know that the simple kiss and $7.48 would lead to life-changing consequences. That was before the war, before this all happened. (stares out over the nuclear wasteland)
      Support Your Local Homebrewery

    18. #68
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      That's like blaming Clinton voters for Trump being President.
      No, it's blaming the country for the predicament it finds itself in because of the collective political choice they made. Either way, they're all in this together. They deserve what they get.

    19. #69
      Quote Originally Posted by Reisner View Post
      No, it's blaming the country for the predicament it finds itself in because of the collective political choice they made. Either way, they're all in this together. They deserve what they get.
      Blame is so useful.

      Does everyone in the world deserve what they get based on their choices?

    20. #70
      Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Reisner View Post
      No, it's blaming the country for the predicament it finds itself in because of the collective political choice they made. Either way, they're all in this together. They deserve what they get.
      Your unflappable logic says German Jews deserved the Holocaust because their fellow Germans voted Hitler in.

      And I don't even feel bad about Godwinning this. A) I was beaten to it. B) This thread has nowhere to go but OT.

    21. #71
      Quote Originally Posted by Reisner View Post
      No, it's blaming the country for the predicament it finds itself in because of the collective political choice they made. Either way, they're all in this together. They deserve what they get.
      If you were a smart kid who made good grades in school, received a useful education and had your employer chased out of your country, or a small shop keeper ruined because you can't import inventory or the government won't let your customers have access to their own funds, you don't deserve your fate just because some malicious people within that country are callous to the ruin they've caused.

      These people aren't "all in it together". Maduro doesn't have a shop that needs inventory and customers and doesn't depend on a functioning petroleum industry for a paycheck. When things go this way in a country, people prove they aren't all in it together by fleeing.

      I wouldn't even say that the people who acquiesced to or have survived the Chavez/Maduro revolution are deserving of their fate. People can make poor choices yet still not deserve what they get. Collective guilt isn't compatible with individual accountability; in a better world it's the individuals in the party who would answer for their acts.
      Last edited by zukiphile; 04-22-2017 at 03:53 PM.
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    22. #72
      Lets not forget that the USA aided and sponsored a military coup in the country back in the 50s, and constantly meddled in the country since the 40s until present. Usually when the US interferes things only get much worse in the end.

    23. #73
      Member GoHomePossum's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by dr whos it View Post
      Lets not forget that the USA aided and sponsored a military coup in the country back in the 50s, and constantly meddled in the country since the 40s until present. Usually when the US interferes things only get much worse in the end.
      I now have an InstaGram: emmettlodge

    24. #74
      Member vwtool's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by SeatIbiza1.8T View Post
      Seriously, WTF!

      Saying crappy things to people online is like yelling at other drivers from behind the safety of your car's windshield: the bubble of protection promotes and protects bad behavior.




      Quote Originally Posted by GoHomePossum View Post
      Venezuelan citizens complain about their government and say it's "not their fault" but aren't the citizens at least partially responsible for who ends up in government...
      Pot, meet ______.

    25. #75
      Member bothhandsplease's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by SeatIbiza1.8T View Post
      WTF? -I am Venezuelan, I had to flee my country, start from scratch in another country like millions of my countrymen/women, and we deserve it?!

      80%+ of the country opposes the government, and they deserve it? -Dictatorships are f%cked up, and they should be stopped before they turn into North Korea or Iran, which are world threats due to foreign negligence for decades upon decades...

      I Really, I hope you never have to go through what Venezuela and all Venezuelans have gone/are going through.

      PS: 2 young people were murdered yesterday by the Government.
      +1

      I have a very close friend who fled with his family to the US. Fortunately he's been able to apply for citizenship through his job. Most all of his family is out of the country, but some distant relatives are still there. The last time he visited they needed things like soap, toothpaste, sponges, and other basic household items.

      The things he's described are horrifying. I'm glad you were able to get out.

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