Bay Area 02 Swap and Show 17 || BMW 2002's and other cool(er) vintage stuff
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    1. #1

      Bay Area 02 Swap and Show 17 || BMW 2002's and other cool(er) vintage stuff

      BMW 2002's are cool, but for some reason they don't really strike a special chord for me. However, I remember this show from last year, and the parking lot and "other stuff" corral of the show were definitely worth the price of entry (i.e. driving up to Brisbane).



      There is always a car show just in the parking lot here. Is this Sold Over Sticker's new E9..? I wish, but alas it's not. That Lotus looks familiar, though...



      Even though I met him on TCL I had to look up his username. It's cool when you get more used to conversing in Real Life with someone But he's a mini celebrity with this car; people are always coming up and talking about it. I even heard someone say, "hey is this the car that was on Petrolicious?" Actually, it is









      Not even in the show!















      Okay...and now the 2002 content. Although the best BMW's are at the end IMO



























      Okay, and now my favorite stuff in the show. The oddball category































      And a couple shots on the way out...





      Thanks for looking!
      Want even more hushypushy? Automotive photography and journalism for the sophisticated gearhead: Star Road. [Updated 4/29]

    2. #2
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      Loving the pictures as always! Got any more to share?

      I think you've mentioned this before but what do you shoot with at shows?

    3. #3
      Member H.E. Pennypacker's Avatar
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      Well done!
      LS1 Volvo Thread

      Previously owned - MkV R32 #3917, 2008 Silverado 1500 VHO 4x4

    4. #4
      Member MoPho's Avatar
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      You probably recognize the Seven from the Petrolicious video





      I got together with the owner last week for a drive











      .

    5. #5
      Member Blade3562's Avatar
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      Finally a relevant thread where I can ask, what's up with the 2002 obsession lately? Is it due to the fact 3.0CSLs and other older BMWs are just astronomically expensive? We had a couple 1600s/2002s and they weren't anything I'd ever lust after, unless is was a Tii Turbo

      That M6 and all of those 3.0CSLs are just downright gorgeous. Would love to drive one someday!

    6. #6
      Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Blade3562 View Post
      Finally a relevant thread where I can ask, what's up with the 2002 obsession lately? Is it due to the fact 3.0CSLs and other older BMWs are just astronomically expensive? We had a couple 1600s/2002s and they weren't anything I'd ever lust after, unless is was a Tii Turbo
      Firstly, the Tii and Turbo are two different cars and secondly, the 2002 has always been a darling of TCL and rightfully so. VWLarry described them as "the quintessential German car" and I cannot disagree. They're a sophisticated design, no nonsense, exceptionally well balanced, have a terrific racing history, are fun to drive, they're easy to work on, build and modify and they are comfortable enough for a great second car. They're even reasonably priced, at least for the time being.

      I will have another.
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    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      Firstly, the Tii and Turbo are two different cars and secondly, the 2002 has always been a darling of TCL and rightfully so. VWLarry described them as "the quintessential German car" and I cannot disagree. They're a sophisticated design, no nonsense, exceptionally well balanced, have a terrific racing history, are fun to drive, they're easy to work on, build and modify and they are comfortable enough for a great second car. They're even reasonably priced, at least for the time being.

      I will have another.
      All true. Also consider the era when they came out. They were a unique offering.

      2002 will never be fast but they can be beautifully balanced and a great practical classic.

      I don't know if I'll ever have another one. The prices are creeping up. Even for the big bumper cars.

    8. #8
      Member Blade3562's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      Firstly, the Tii and Turbo are two different cars and secondly, the 2002 has always been a darling of TCL and rightfully so. VWLarry described them as "the quintessential German car" and I cannot disagree. They're a sophisticated design, no nonsense, exceptionally well balanced, have a terrific racing history, are fun to drive, they're easy to work on, build and modify and they are comfortable enough for a great second car. They're even reasonably priced, at least for the time being.

      I will have another.
      My poverty economy spec Mk1 can run circles around them. I fail to see how something is quintessential if 80hp can outrun and outperform it. A GTI will blow one out of the water. The Mk1 will also seat a family of 4 much more comfortably then a 2002. And I'm speaking from a family that has owned both simultaneously.

      The interior lacks comfort, the drive lacks enthusiasm and the power doesn't exist. Idk I guess I don't see the appeal, but whatever floats your boat.

    9. #9
      A beautiful Summer's Eve Sold Over Sticker's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Blade3562 View Post
      My poverty economy spec Mk1 can run circles around them. I fail to see how something is quintessential if 80hp can outrun and outperform it. A GTI will blow one out of the water. The Mk1 will also seat a family of 4 much more comfortably then a 2002. And I'm speaking from a family that has owned both simultaneously.

      The interior lacks comfort, the drive lacks enthusiasm and the power doesn't exist. Idk I guess I don't see the appeal, but whatever floats your boat.
      Your dislike for them doesn't distort the truth. Here's an article about a 1983 GTI: http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...en-rabbit-gti/

      It's a second slower through the quarter than a Tii, and even a 1600 is faster than the ~19 seconds it takes a Rabbit to get through the 1/4. Are you sure yours was running right?

      Having driven many MkI's and many Nk BMW's, I'm at a total loss understanding your statement of "the drive lacks enthusiasm." You'll have to unpack that statement for me, as the cars are a blast to drive, and their entertaining driving dynamics are what put BMW on the map in North America.
      Last edited by Sold Over Sticker; 05-19-2017 at 09:47 AM.
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    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by Blade3562 View Post
      My poverty economy spec Mk1 can run circles around them. I fail to see how something is quintessential if 80hp can outrun and outperform it. A GTI will blow one out of the water. The Mk1 will also seat a family of 4 much more comfortably then a 2002. And I'm speaking from a family that has owned both simultaneously.

      The interior lacks comfort, the drive lacks enthusiasm and the power doesn't exist. Idk I guess I don't see the appeal, but whatever floats your boat.

      Your MK1 is a generation newer vehicle.

      I had a '67 1600 and '74 Tii, plus many, many MK1's. Early Rabbits, GTI's, Sciroccos, 16V Swaps etc.

      Condition being equal I don't think MK1 has a performance advantage over a 02. I think they are comparable performance wise.
      The Tii with 140 hp will show a GTI it's taillights. The RWD balance puts the BMW on a different plane than the VWs.

      Maybe your families 2002 was worn out? It would have been an older vehicle.

      Regardless, different strokes for different folks.

    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by Blade3562 View Post
      My poverty economy spec Mk1 can run circles around them. I fail to see how something is quintessential if 80hp can outrun and outperform it. A GTI will blow one out of the water. The Mk1 will also seat a family of 4 much more comfortably then a 2002. And I'm speaking from a family that has owned both simultaneously.

      The interior lacks comfort, the drive lacks enthusiasm and the power doesn't exist. Idk I guess I don't see the appeal, but whatever floats your boat.
      You are such a dubber.

      Perhaps people just like them. Guess what? There's tons of people who don't like Mk1's and that's okay.




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    12. #12
      Member chucchinchilla's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Blade3562 View Post
      My poverty economy spec Mk1 can run circles around them. I fail to see how something is quintessential if 80hp can outrun and outperform it. A GTI will blow one out of the water. The Mk1 will also seat a family of 4 much more comfortably then a 2002. And I'm speaking from a family that has owned both simultaneously.

      The interior lacks comfort, the drive lacks enthusiasm and the power doesn't exist. Idk I guess I don't see the appeal, but whatever floats your boat.
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    13. #13
      Member Blade3562's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sold Over Sticker View Post
      Your dislike for them doesn't distort the truth. Here's an article about a 1983 GTI: http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...en-rabbit-gti/

      It's a second slower through the quarter than a Tii, and even a 1600 is faster than the ~19 seconds it takes a Rabbit to get through the 1/4. Are you sure yours was running right?

      Having driven many MkI's and many Nk BMW's, I'm at a total loss understanding your statement of "the drive lacks enthusiasm." You'll have to unpack that statement for me, as the cars are a blast to drive, and their entertaining driving dynamics are what put BMW on the map in North America.
      My bone stock unmodified '81 1.7L fuel injected GP(3+E) trans Rabbit will do a 17 second 1/4 mile on an NHRA track/tree. I'll dig out the slips. So don't know if that's a California emissions car which has a fishbowl downpipe and cat? That'll slow any Mk1 down to a crawl. Mine was a PA emissions car and had the cat installed for the 17 second passes.

      What I mean by the drive lacks enthusiasm is the car doesn't give you the feedback or the joy something like an Austin Mini or NA Miata does. It's just meh. Maybe I'm the wrong build I just didn't feel connected with the car. The car drives nothing like the BMW 3.0 CSL or 507 which is really the car I would say put BMW on the map.

      As stated about everyone likes different cars, I just don't get anything out of the 1600/2002 I'd take a Datsun 510 over one every day of the week.

    14. #14
      Member Crispyfritter's Avatar
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      " I don't understand why everyone likes these cars. My car is better and faster and more comfortable. "

      ^That's what you sound like. Would you like us to start a thread on your car?

      Seriously, if you acted like this in person you wouldn't have any friends. Are you the guy that tries to one-up everyone's story?

      This a great thread. Leave it alone. Let people enjoy what they want to enjoy.

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    15. #15
      A beautiful Summer's Eve Sold Over Sticker's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Blade3562 View Post
      My bone stock unmodified '81 1.7L fuel injected GP(3+E) trans Rabbit will do a 17 second 1/4 mile on an NHRA track/tree. I'll dig out the slips. So don't know if that's a California emissions car which has a fishbowl downpipe and cat? That'll slow any Mk1 down to a crawl. Mine was a PA emissions car and had the cat installed for the 17 second passes.

      What I mean by the drive lacks enthusiasm is the car doesn't give you the feedback or the joy something like an Austin Mini or NA Miata does. It's just meh. Maybe I'm the wrong build I just didn't feel connected with the car. The car drives nothing like the BMW 3.0 CSL or 507 which is really the car I would say put BMW on the map.

      As stated about everyone likes different cars, I just don't get anything out of the 1600/2002 I'd take a Datsun 510 over one every day of the week.
      Well you got me on your Rabbit being as fast as a GTI. That puts it on par with a 2002.

      Per driving dynamics, the 507 didn't put BMW on the map. That was a 50's car, and while Elvis had one, it was a sales flop and didn't help give BMW a foothold in the US. The Neue Klasse cars like the 2002 and 2800/3.0 did.

      Have you driven an E9? I owned one, and there are a ton of similarities in the driving experience between an E9 and a 2002. OP in this thread has seat time in my E9, and our friend just bought an 02, so I'm sure he'll drive it soon enough and chime in.

      I respect the fact that you don't like the car. Everyone gets to like what they want to like. I'm just confused because your reasons don't make sense to me. If I cooked you a steak, that was well seasoned, cooked perfectly medium rare, and was juicy and you said "I don't like steak; it's bland, dry and chewy," I might be able to respect your opinion, but I'd be damn confused as to why you said that about the exact steak I just cooked for you.

      Forgot to thank Hushy for the great photos as always! That was a fun day. It was nice to see some of my old E9 buddies.
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    16. #16
      Member Blade3562's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sold Over Sticker View Post
      Well you got me on your Rabbit being as fast as a GTI. That puts it on par with a 2002.

      Per driving dynamics, the 507 didn't put BMW on the map. That was a 50's car, and while Elvis had one, it was a sales flop and didn't help give BMW a foothold in the US. The Neue Klasse cars like the 2002 and 2800/3.0 did.

      Have you driven an E9? I owned one, and there are a ton of similarities in the driving experience between an E9 and a 2002. OP in this thread has seat time in my E9, and our friend just bought an 02, so I'm sure he'll drive it soon enough and chime in.

      I respect the fact that you don't like the car. Everyone gets to like what they want to like. I'm just confused because your reasons don't make sense to me. If I cooked you a steak, that was well seasoned, cooked perfectly medium rare, and was juicy and you said "I don't like steak; it's bland, dry and chewy," I might be able to respect your opinion, but I'd be damn confused as to why you said that about the exact steak I just cooked for you.

      Forgot to thank Hushy for the great photos as always! That was a fun day. It was nice to see some of my old E9 buddies.
      I unfortunately do not have real spirited drive time behind an E9, but the E9 was a car one of our neighbors owned and I will always want to own. I've taken a few trips to the store or around the block and that's about it. The impression it left and how it felt just stick with me. Plus that absolutely glorious symphony the exhaust plays!

      I guess the response just was too generic for me. It was like I went to the dealership and was given a sales pitch by someone who didn't realize I owned the car he was telling me about. Maybe I'm in the minority who don't like them and just don't see what the majority does. That's ok! Sorry if my comparison to the rabbit seemed rude I was simply trying to relate it to another vehicle I own and have lots of time behind that is relatively similar!

      I would love to see more pics of the M6. I've had a hardon for one ever since I saw my first one at the PVGP. I don't know that I've ever seen one in the road. Hoping to see one at Carlisle this weekend!

    17. #17
      Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      Sorry, I've owned both a 2002 and Mk1s, Mk2s and so on. They're not "similar".

      You don't have to like it, but your posts make little sense. Perhaps yours was a mess, suspension wise. Mine would rotate on command and was a joy to drive. Was it raw? No, that wasn't the car's mission. It was damned good, though. YMMV.
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    18. #18
      Quote Originally Posted by sp3nt View Post
      Loving the pictures as always! Got any more to share?

      I think you've mentioned this before but what do you shoot with at shows?
      Yeah, there are always extra snaps. You can click any of the pics to go through to Flickr, where you can check out the album. Alternatively, click here to go straight there. If you want even more, you can check out my shots from last year's show.

      It actually says the camera info on Flickr as well (EXIF data is listed under the photo). I use a Nikon D750 with a Nikon 50mm f/1.4

      Quote Originally Posted by Blade3562 View Post
      Finally a relevant thread where I can ask, what's up with the 2002 obsession lately? Is it due to the fact 3.0CSLs and other older BMWs are just astronomically expensive? We had a couple 1600s/2002s and they weren't anything I'd ever lust after, unless is was a Tii Turbo
      Lately? I haven't noticed any recent explosion in 2002's.

      But wow, someone likes something different than you. What a concept!

      Mk1 Golfs are nothing I'd ever lust after, and even those are cooler than the Eos or a base model Mk7, so I don't think you're the right guy to be talking about lust-worthy cars. It's always hilarious when people with insanely boring cars denounce other stuff as being uncool

      Quote Originally Posted by Blade3562 View Post
      My poverty economy spec Mk1 can run circles around them. I fail to see how something is quintessential if 80hp can outrun and outperform it. A GTI will blow one out of the water. The Mk1 will also seat a family of 4 much more comfortably then a 2002. And I'm speaking from a family that has owned both simultaneously.

      The interior lacks comfort, the drive lacks enthusiasm and the power doesn't exist. Idk I guess I don't see the appeal, but whatever floats your boat.
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    19. #19
      Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by hushypushy View Post
      That's an excellent example, as a Speedster was bested by a Karmann Ghia in '72 in a Road and Track (perhaps Car and Driver) article. If I remember it correctly the Speedster could outrun the Ghia in a straight line by a little, but that was it. In every other test the Ghia took the Porsche.
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    20. #20
      Quote Originally Posted by Blade3562 View Post
      What I mean by the drive lacks enthusiasm is the car doesn't give you the feedback or the joy something like an Austin Mini or NA Miata does. It's just meh. Maybe I'm the wrong build I just didn't feel connected with the car. The car drives nothing like the BMW 3.0 CSL or 507 which is really the car I would say put BMW on the map.
      I find this comment so surprising that I now have a feeling you've actually never driven an 02. The reason these cars are so popular is because they are super communicative (feedback) and ooze sense of occasion. The simple interior and that airy greenhouse with delicately damped switchgear (the way the turn signal and wiper stalk engages is pure Swiss, ahem, German watch). But the driving dynamics are where it's at, so back to that "connectedness" or communicative-ness. These cars are very simple, analog machines that tell you exactly what the chassis is doing from the moment you begin to turn into a turn, through a nice gentle slide, and back onto the straight. They are an absolute blast to drive.

      I am not gonna go into "blowing the doors off" of this or that. It's about the experience. It also helps that they are pretty damn cool looking too.

      Now, I don't mean to call you a liar, so I will agree with the other folks who have chimed in and said that perhaps the examples you drove were super tired.


      Quote Originally Posted by Blade3562
      I'd take a Datsun 510 over one every day of the week.
      So you'll take a 2002 if it's Japanese? Cool.


      This is so rad!





      Also, nice to see that ol' cloud face made it to the show:


    21. #21
      Quote Originally Posted by Blade3562 View Post
      My poverty economy spec Mk1 can run circles around them. I fail to see how something is quintessential if 80hp can outrun and outperform it. A GTI will blow one out of the water. The Mk1 will also seat a family of 4 much more comfortably then a 2002. And I'm speaking from a family that has owned both simultaneously.

      The interior lacks comfort, the drive lacks enthusiasm and the power doesn't exist. Idk I guess I don't see the appeal, but whatever floats your boat.
      I owned pair of 2002s, including a tii, I'm a BMW guy...but I'm kind of with him on this. Maybe a big part of it was struggling with their rust, back in Michigan, on cars about ten years old, but realistically they were more quirky than good. I did like the quirky, and the stick shifts, something tougher to find on domestics of that era. But the best use of that tii engine was in my later e21 320i, which was a better car to me at the time than the 2002s had been, and it responded very well to 140 HP. To someone who owned them in their contemporary timeframe the 320i was a better car in every way.

      A part of the appeal of 2002s is probably nostalgia for the Seventies. That and the fact they looked really different in a time when BMWs were not common. I own two 1986 cars, and when I slip in them and turn on an eighties station it's like I'm back to a simpler time, when I was just starting out. That feeling is powerful. But I don't recommend a 944 Turbo to anyone who finds parts costs make them faint of heart, nostalgia or no. And when these cars are twenty, twenty five thousand dollars needing bodywork I think that's a bit much for what you get.
      Last edited by fbobberts; 05-19-2017 at 11:55 AM.
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    22. #22
      A beautiful Summer's Eve Sold Over Sticker's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by fbobberts View Post
      I owned pair of 2002s, including a tii, I'm a BMW guy...but I'm kind of with him on this. Maybe a big part of it was struggling with their rust, back in Michigan, on cars about ten years old, but realistically they were more quirky than good. I did like the quirky, and the stick shifts, something tougher to find on domestics of that era. But the best use of that tii engine was in my later e21 320i, which was a better car to me at the time than the 2002s had been, and it responded very well to 140 HP. To someone who owned them in their contemporary timeframe the 320i was a better car in every way.

      A part of the appeal of 2002s is probably nostalgia for the Seventies. That and the fact they looked really different in a time when BMWs were not common. I own two 1986 cars, and when I slip in them and turn on an eighties station it's like I'm back to a simpler time, when I was just starting out. That feeling is powerful. But I don't recommend a 944 Turbo to anyone who finds parts costs make them faint of heart, nostalgia or no. And when these cars are twenty, twenty five thousand dollars needing bodywork I think that's a bit much for what you get.
      Part of it might just be dealing with what at the time was just an old rusty car, vs now when you appreciate it being a cool old car. I'm sure my E9 in 1980 was styled from 15 years ago, the AC was crap, it was temperamental when cold, didn't have the grip of an E24, and battled with rust, and I'm sure the suspension was dead by then. But an E9 now, or an E24 now, is a horse of a different color. You're allowed to put the rose tinted glasses on, and I'll contend that is the exact reason guys like us are drawn to buy old German cars. I want the nostalgia, flaws included. Now I get to enjoy the quirks rather than get stranded on my way to work by them, so it's a different beast.

      Quote Originally Posted by inquisitive View Post

      Also, nice to see that ol' cloud face made it to the show:

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    23. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by fbobberts View Post
      I owned pair of 2002s, including a tii, I'm a BMW guy...but I'm kind of with him on this. Maybe a big part of it was struggling with their rust, back in Michigan, on cars about ten years old, but realistically they were more quirky than good. I did like the quirky, and the stick shifts, something tougher to find on domestics of that era. But the best use of that tii engine was in my later e21 320i, which was a better car to me at the time than the 2002s had been, and it responded very well to 140 HP. To someone who owned them in their contemporary timeframe the 320i was a better car in every way.

      A part of the appeal of 2002s is probably nostalgia for the Seventies. I own two 1986 cars, and when I slip in them and turn on an eighties station it's like I'm back to a simpler time, when I was just starting out. That feeling is powerful. But I don't recommend a 944 Turbo to anyone who finds parts costs make them faint of heart, nostalgia or no.
      Better car as in better built, more refined, etc, sure. The E21 was leagues ahead.
      Better performer? I don't think so. I like E21s but they are not the same.

      Part of the appeal of any classic car is nostalgia. They also have something that is lost in modern vehicles.


      The 2002 criticism reminds me of a '71 2002 I passed on in the early '90's. I was living in Eugene, OR, the car was owned by one of my parents friends.
      He bought the car new. It was a stripper, no sunroof, no ac, etc. It was well used and not well maintained. No rust, not wrecked. Paint was cooked, interior was well worn. It started and ran fine but the suspension was worn out.
      That car wallowed and rolled like nobodies business. Terrible to drive.
      I passed on it for $2k thinking it was to big a project.
      What I wouldn't give to find one like that now.
      Heck, I'd even pay double.

    24. #24
      Quote Originally Posted by fbobberts View Post
      I owned pair of 2002s, including a tii, I'm a BMW guy...but I'm kind of with him on this. Maybe a big part of it was struggling with their rust, back in Michigan, on cars about ten years old, but realistically they were more quirky than good. I did like the quirky, and the stick shifts, something tougher to find on domestics of that era. But the best use of that tii engine was in my later e21 320i, which was a better car to me at the time than the 2002s had been, and it responded very well to 140 HP. To someone who owned them in their contemporary timeframe the 320i was a better car in every way.

      A part of the appeal of 2002s is probably nostalgia for the Seventies. That and the fact they looked really different in a time when BMWs were not common. I own two 1986 cars, and when I slip in them and turn on an eighties station it's like I'm back to a simpler time, when I was just starting out. That feeling is powerful. But I don't recommend a 944 Turbo to anyone who finds parts costs make them faint of heart, nostalgia or no. And when these cars are twenty, twenty five thousand dollars needing bodywork I think that's a bit much for what you get.
      Sold Over Sticker and Poorhouse have summed it up well, but I gotta ask, what quirks are you referring to re the 2002?

      E21's are renowned for their quirky handling, being portly with essentially the same power plant, and in CA, being severely limited by emissions regs. We never got an E21 with 140hp in the US, but perhaps you were able to mod yours to that spec? No doubt that E21's are quieter, more insulated cars, but not sure that's something I care for in this context.

    25. #25
      Quote Originally Posted by Sold Over Sticker View Post
      Have you driven an E9? I owned one, and there are a ton of similarities in the driving experience between an E9 and a 2002. OP in this thread has seat time in my E9, and our friend just bought an 02, so I'm sure he'll drive it soon enough and chime in.
      I really need to drive an '02, for two big reasons:

      1. I always thought the E9 was a cool car, but when I drove yours I was BLOWN AWAY at how smooth and nice it was to drive, so now I really like E9's.

      2. I've never really been a huge 2002 fan. To me they look good but not great, and I've never driven one so I have nothing to go off there. On paper they seem very interesting (small light car with a revvy 4 cylinder), so I need to drive one to put together a fuller opinion.

      Quote Originally Posted by inquisitive View Post
      This is so rad!

      Man, I should have made a walk around video of that car. I swear it was painted in the pearlescent silver from the Scion 10 Anniversary!



      Want even more hushypushy? Automotive photography and journalism for the sophisticated gearhead: Star Road. [Updated 4/29]

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