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A counterpoint to that would be to say that if she were lying, she'd try to file as quickly as possible so as to turn the media against him.
Quote, originally posted by SchrickVR6 »
Then she would've filed a civil lawsuit already, and certainly would've held a press conference to tell her side. But I forget...he's a celebrity and therefore can do no wrong.I agree with you for the most part but she isn't obligated to file the civil action until the statute of limitations has run. Strategically, she would be better off for the criminal case to conclude before filing the civil action. She gets to see the defense present its case and find loop-holes.
Quote, originally posted by theevilshiftkey » I know PLENTY of couples who swing a little on the weekends, regardless how how "horrible" you might think it is. Adultry isn't as black and white as the church would like you to think it is.
Hmmm... that's interesting because the Dictionary would "as black and white as the church" on this issue.
a·dul·ter·y
n. pl. a·dul·ter·ies
Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.Seems pretty black and white to me. Ever hear of absolute truth???
Quote, originally posted by VWjet » Seems pretty black and white to me. Ever hear of absolute truth??? Regardless of what the dictionary actually defines the word as, some couples are okay with it (i.e. swingers), and that's not really adultery, IMO. If it's an open relationship, then you're not cheating, are you?
Anyway, this is veering off topic. Why'd we start talking about this anyway?
Quote, originally posted by blackbora77 » Aren't we ALL innocent until proven guilty?
Not, as a wise man said in one of the other 42 threads on
this subject, in the court of public opinion.
Look, I seriously doubt that anyone posting condones the
act of rape. That said, let's separate Kobe from this little
debate for a minute. Let's say it's the guy down the street
being accused. "She said", and the guy is dragged away in
cuffs to the cellblock. Probably has to post a huge bail just
to see daylight because "she said." Now, was it a rape...
was it consensual and she decided to file rape charges for
whatever reason...or was it that nothing took place and
she's getting revenge through some warped rationale?
How many cases have you read of lately where "rapists"
are being freed after serving years of hard time due to
new DNA evidence in the case or because the accuser has
decided to recant her charge? What becomes of the "rapist"?
He can try to sue the system, but those cases rarely go
anywhere. He's pretty much out those lost years. What
becomes of the accuser? Nothing. Nada. She has to live
with her conscience (if she had one in the first place), but
rarely, if ever, is any legal action taken against her for her
horrible crime.
Point being; to hell with all of the bleeding-hearts whining
about how a woman is "put on trial" when she cries rape.
Everything about the accuser should be out in the open when
it becomes a simple matter of "she said." And, if the person
pointing the finger is found to be lying about the incident -
for whatever reason - she should be convicted and put away
for at least the amount of time that the "rapist" was sentenced
to in the first place.
Granted, the percentages of false accusations are small com-
pared to the real animals out there raping women. But again,
if women want to have the power to put a man away for decades
simply by saying "he did it", they're going to have to be subjected
to the burden of proof. And if that means being put through the
ringer on the stand, then so be it. It should also mean being put
away for a long time if "she said" is proven to be a case of a
woman scorned.
Misogynist? Not at all. Rationalist? You bet.
just a personal question G-money. Alot of ur posts make very good points, but why the heck are the margins always half way through the page? P just curious
Rapist come in all shapes and sizes. Some rapist are rich. Some rapist are poor. Some rapist are good looking and some are ugly. Rape is about power and control.Some men feel that a women has to be crazy to say no to them just because they have money or good looks. Alot of times they can not handle the rejection and commit themselves into something that in their mind, justifies the rape.
I once had a girl friend that was raped. Her rapist was a friend of the family, a member of the local church, he had a good job and he lived in the neighborhood. After the incident occured, the guy acted as if nothing ever happened. She saw the guy in church the following Sunday, he did not have a shred of guilt or remorse.
She never reported it because of fear, embarressement and the belief that she invited it to happen. So what she did to help make some sense of this, she cut all of her hair off. She said that she wanted to look and feel like the ugliest person in the world.
This is just something for the people that are saying that she is a skank, money hungry or seeking fame. You can never tell what is going on with someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes. She may just be telling the truth. Kobe may also be telling the truth, but he should not have lied about the sex from the beginning.
I probably would feel like a lot of people, if I would not have met this women who was raped.
Quote, originally posted by GMoney »
Not, as a wise man said in one of the other 42 threads on
this subject, in the court of public opinion.Damn, G, can't you have a thought of your own?
One very important thing to consider here - right now, the public knows only two things. 1) Kobe committed adultery and 2) he initially lied when he said he didn't do anything. Everything else - from the claim of rape to the statements regarding this young lady's past - is completely unverified. From my standpoint, Kobe's got more of a credibility problem than the victim/accuser right now. We know he lied. We know he did something he wasn't supposed to do. Regardless of what one may think of Kobe or the victim/accuser, you simply cannot, at this point in time, get past the fact that Kobe's credibility is questionable.
Modified by MiataMan at 10:49 AM 7-27-2003
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This maybe would have been true if the alleged crime was different. But I think it's pretty understandable for a guy that cheated on his wife to lie about it. At least a t first when he thought that there may be a way out of this whole mess without too much bad publicity. And the public understands that lying about adultery is not an uncommon thing and frankly not a big deal really if you think about it. On a presonal level yes, but as far as we as a society are concerned, I don't really give a damn if someone is cheating on his wife. Or if he lies about it.
Quote, originally posted by blackbora77 » just adultery?? 
Are we so jaded nowadays that something as sacred as a marriage is practically meaningless. Compared to rape it isn't as horrible but he's still a [insert expletive here] for cheating.
Give me break. There is no "we" in adultery. Adultery is not an act that has any bearings on anyone except for the adulterer's wife/husband and children if there are any. And even then, we're not talking about physical harm, only emotional harm. If rape is not involved and the sexual act is consensual I really don't give a damn about someone else is doing with other people.
That said, I myself am married. I love my wife, I never cheated on her and I probably never will. But if someone else is doing it, it's his business.
If Kobe can afford to buy a $4 million diamond to placate his wife, then he can probably afford $4 million to make this problem go away. I wonder if he has already offered to settle this case and got rejected?I believe Mike Tyson didn't commit rape even though he was convicted of it. But in this case, I don't think this woman is lying. That family lives in a mansion in Vail. I don't think she needs the money. If anything, the family is probably pissed as hell that Kobe has the balls to rape their daughter. If they're connected, then Kobe better hope he spends the rest of this life in jail.
Quote, originally posted by Reflex5.5 » This maybe would have been true if the alleged crime was different. But I think it's pretty understandable for a guy that cheated on his wife to lie about it. At least a t first when he thought that there may be a way out of this whole mess without too much bad publicity. And the public understands that lying about adultery is not an uncommon thing and frankly not a big deal really if you think about it. On a presonal level yes, but as far as we as a society are concerned, I don't really give a damn if someone is cheating on his wife. Or if he lies about it. Did I just read that? Wow, I am shocked. I guess I knew there were people that thought like that, but wow!
I think it's pretty understandable for a guy that cheated on his wife to lie about it.
What else is understandable to lie about? In my opinion (which may seem outdated to several of you), lying is lying and lying is wrong. Kobe lied - he is wrong.And the public understands that lying about adultery is not an uncommon thing and frankly not a big deal really if you think about it.
When you start gauging right/wrong by public opinion, you've got yourself in a big ol' mess (see William Jefferson for further discussion). There is a lot that is "not an uncommon thing," but then again, in my opinion, that does not make it right.
And you think adultery is not really a big deal? Don't get me started.I don't really give a damn if someone is cheating on his wife
I sure do. I want to know if someone has a credibility problem. I want to know if I can trust that person. What if I need to tell one person some very secret and confidential information. Do I want to tell someone that I know has committed adultery? No way!!!Different strokes for different folks.
Quote, originally posted by MiataMan »
One very important thing to consider here - right now, the public knows only two things. 1) Kobe committed adultery and 2) he initially lied when he said he didn't do anything. Everything else - from the claim of rape to the statements regarding this young lady's past - is completely unverified. From my standpoint, Kobe's got more of a credibility problem than the victim/accuser right now. We know he lied. We know he did something he wasn't supposed to do. Regardless of what one may think of Kobe or the victim/accuser, you simply cannot, at this point in time, get past the fact that Kobe's credibility is questionable.Right on, brother!
Quote, originally posted by Reflex5.5 » Give me break. There is no "we" in adultery. Adultery is not an act that has any bearings on anyone except for the adulterer's wife/husband and children if there are any. And even then, we're not talking about physical harm, only emotional harm. If rape is not involved and the sexual act is consensual I really don't give a damn about someone else is doing with other people.
That said, I myself am married. I love my wife, I never cheated on her and I probably never will. But if someone else is doing it, it's his business.
WTF???
Note to GMoney: stop taking people's posts out of context, it is irresponsible and makes you look bad.
Quote »
Adultery is not something that should be taken as lightly as some in this forum are characterizing it as. When i used the word "we" it was in relation to the people in this forum and in this society that are OK saying "Oh Kobe didn't rape the girl, he just committed adultery." Like adultery is some insiginifcant act that does not betray someone you have made a life commitment to.You're misunderstanding the context of the "just adultry" stance. It's like this: Rape is worse than adultry. Ergo, "I didn't rape her, I just cheated." The implication of the statement is to lessen the "evilness", but not to suggest that audulty isn't also bad. You're just reading between the lines too much. Relax, seriously. We understand what you're saying.
Quote, originally posted by blackbora77 » Note to GMoney: stop taking people's posts out of
context, it is irresponsible and makes you look bad.
To borrow your phrase..."WTF???"I merely used your quote as a starting point to give MM
kudos for his post in the other thread...and directed zero
vitriol at you in the process. Settle down and try to digest
the verbage before taking potshots...
I was told Colorado law allows any nonconsensual physical act to be termed rape. So the burden of proof is going to be on him. I see him giving her some money and a divorce in a few years.
Rape involves penetration in the va-gina. In other places, it would be sodomy. In any case, the charge is sexual assault, which probably includes both rape and sodomy in its definition.
Modified by Eric in DC at 9:47 AM 7-28-2003
burden of proof in the United States is on the prosecution. NEVER on the defense. Innocent until proven guilty, remember?
Quote, originally posted by VWjet »
What else is understandable to lie about? In my opinion (which may seem outdated to several of you), lying is lying and lying is wrong. Kobe lied - he is wrong.
I didn't argue wether it's right or wrong. I simply said it's understandable for him to lie.
Quote »
When you start gauging right/wrong by public opinion, you've got yourself in a big ol' mess (see William Jefferson for further discussion). There is a lot that is "not an uncommon thing," but then again, in my opinion, that does not make it right.
And you think adultery is not really a big deal? Don't get me started.
Again, I was not talking about right or wrong. There are things that are considered "wrong" but are not a big deal. This is one of them. Cheating on your wife/husbad/boyfriend/girlfriend is a common thing in today's reality so no one really gets excited about it.
Quote »
I sure do. I want to know if someone has a credibility problem. I want to know if I can trust that person. What if I need to tell one person some very secret and confidential information. Do I want to tell someone that I know has committed adultery? No way!!!
You're mixing things up. Just because someone is unfaithfull to his spouse, doesn't at all mean that he has a credibility problem when it involves other people I have friends(both men and women) that have cheated on their boy/girlfirends or their spouse, but that doesn't change the relationship between them and I. In the army, one of my sergeants was cheating on his wife and that didn't changed the fact that I trusted him with my life at all.
Well, you have to understand, Reflex, that there are some people who believe that if someone will lie about something as important as being faithful to their wives, then they will lie about anything.
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Quote, originally posted by Reflex5.5 » Again, I was not talking about right or wrong. There are things that are considered "wrong" but are not a big deal. This is one of them. Cheating on your wife/husbad/boyfriend/girlfriend is a common thing in today's reality so no one really gets excited about it. Here's the problem staright from the horse's mouth. How would your wife feel about a statement like that. Oh, you would never cheat on her? How come? because its a BIG DEAL that she would "get excited about"?? In today's "reality" cheating is still wrong and it demeans the special nature of a marriage. Why get married if monogamy and trust is not important? also, where do you draw the line between things that are wrong and not a big deal and things that are wrong and are a big deal?
Getting back to the point here, it was snaky of Kobe to rely on just adultery to take the spotlight off the allegations that he raped a woman. And people with the opinion of Reflex (that adultery isn't that bad) are falling in line behind him. It makes me sad for the future of our community as human beings, especially in this country.
Quote, originally posted by blackbora77 » Here's the problem staright from the horse's mouth. How would your wife feel about a statement like that. Oh, you would never cheat on her? How come? because its a BIG DEAL that she would "get excited about"?? In today's "reality" cheating is still wrong and it demeans the special nature of a marriage. Why get married if monogamy and trust is not important? also, where do you draw the line between things that are wrong and not a big deal and things that are wrong and are a big deal?
Getting back to the point here, it was snaky of Kobe to rely on just adultery to take the spotlight off the allegations that he raped a woman. And people with the opinion of Reflex (that adultery isn't that bad) are falling in line behind him. It makes me sad for the future of our community as human beings, especially in this country.
Very true, our social status as beings have been slowly degrading when in fact the masses are lulled to believe that they are educated beings with the freedoms and abilities to do as they believe with no consequences.
In this particular case, it is probably a dose of the above with a larger dose of ego.
Quote, originally posted by blackbora77 » Getting back to the point here, it was snaky of Kobe to rely on just adultery to take the spotlight off the allegations that he raped a woman. And people with the opinion of Reflex (that adultery isn't that bad) are falling in line behind him. It makes me sad for the future of our community as human beings, especially in this country. Frankly, I EXPECT American celebrities to adulterize (I'm sure there's a real word for that I'm forgetting). They're 90% bloated egotistical boobs. How's that for a cynical view of our society? Regarless, I'll bet that a majority of people agree with that to some extent.
Quote, originally posted by SchrickVR6 » Well, you have to understand, Reflex, that there are some people who believe that if someone will lie about something as important as being faithful to their wives, then they will lie about anything.
Sure there are. I never said otherwise. But there are also a lot of people(dare I say the majority) that do understand that people will lie about certain things but not others. Heck, I used to lie to my boss all the time about how much time I spent every day on the Vortex.
Quote, originally posted by blackbora77 »
Here's the problem staright from the horse's mouth. How would your wife feel about a statement like that. Oh, you would never cheat on her? How come? because its a BIG DEAL that she would "get excited about"??
No, because I love her, because I know it would hurt her and frankly I don't crave other women because of what I feel towards her.
Quote »
In today's "reality" cheating is still wrong and it demeans the special nature of a marriage. Why get married if monogamy and trust is not important?
Of course cheating is wrong. I never said otherwise. I jusr mentioned that while it is still considered wrong, not many people get excited when they hear about someone cheating. Mostly because it's so common today.
Quote »
also, where do you draw the line between things that are wrong and not a big deal and things that are wrong and are a big deal?
Don'y know. What I do know, is that I'll judge each case seperatly and decide if I feel it's a big deal or not.
Quote »
And people with the opinion of Reflex (that adultery isn't that bad) are falling in line behind him.
Read my posts again. I never said that.
Quote, originally posted by VWjet »
Very true, our social status as beings have been slowly degrading when in fact the masses are lulled to believe that they are educated beings with the freedoms and abilities to do as they believe with no consequences.Really? So what's better? To have a free will to cheat on your wife, or to not cheat on her because you believe that if you do so then you'll be sent to hell by the almighty god? The simple fact to remember is that the reason that in the past there were not so many cases of adultery or divorces, is because religion held the masses by their throat. Divine law. And I personally prefer the the abstract notion of "society degradation" than to live in the ignorance of the dark ages. The simple fact is that we now live better than ever, we live longer, our lives are more comfortable than ever in history and this is exactly due to what you so quickly dismiss as "lulled to believe that they are educated beings with the freedoms and abilities to do as they believe with no consequences."
Modified by Reflex5.5 at 10:16 PM 7-28-2003
If I was the prosecution, I would hammer Kobe's credibility with the fact that he committed adultery and that he lied about it. That's two separate acts of dishonesty. Both instances will probably be raised on cross examination to discredit any statement he may make regarding his innocence.
Quote, originally posted by Reflex5.5 » Really? So what's better? To have a free will to cheat on your wife, or to not cheat on her because you believe that if you do so then you'll be sent to hell by the almighty god? The simple fact to remember is that the reason that in the past there were not so many cases of adultery or divorces, is because religion held the masses by their throat. Divine law. And I personally prefer the the abstract notion of "society degradation" than to live in the ignorance of the dark ages. The simple fact is that we now live better than ever, we live longer, our lives are more comfortable than ever in history and this is exactly due to what you so quickly dismiss as "lulled to believe that they are educated beings with the freedoms and abilities to do as they believe with no consequences." Round and round we go. We could do this all day - no real point though. So...
The question is regarding whether I think Kobe is guilty of rape or adultery. Well, I know he is guilty of adultery and I think Kobe is guilty of rape as well. What do you think?
Quote, originally posted by VWjet »
Round and round we go. We could do this all day - no real point though. So...
The fact that you don't agree with point doesn't mean there isn't one.
Quote »
The question is regarding whether I think Kobe is guilty of rape or adultery. Well, I know he is guilty of adultery and I think Kobe is guilty of rape as well. What do you think?
Adultery last time I checked is not a crime, so he can't be guilty of it. As for the rape, if he is guilty he should rot in jail. Personally, I don't think he did it.
Quote, originally posted by Eric in DC » If I was the prosecution, I would hammer Kobe's credibility with the fact that he committed adultery and that he lied about it. That's two separate acts of dishonesty. Both instances will probably be raised on cross examination to discredit any statement he may make regarding his innocence. They probably will, but if he did do it, I sure hope the prosecution will have more than that to base their case on.
Quote, originally posted by Reflex5.5 »
No, because I love her, because I know it would hurt her and frankly I don't crave other women because of what I feel towards her.Right. because you love her and it would hurt her. Doesnt sound like something that is no big deal. It sounds like something that would jeopardize any marriage. So your characteriztion of adultery as being "no big deal" is suspect, from your own descriptions. And I wonder if Vanessa Bryant considers adultery as "no big deal". I think its a cop out to say just because something happens often it makes it OK so not take it seriously. What about the number of people who are homeless. is homelessness "no big dea" because there are so many homeless people in this nation? Is a lack healthcare for the elderly and a lack of a good education for "no big deal" because there are so many elderly without healthcare and so many kids reading books in school older than i am? How about the number of murders committed on a DAILY basis in this country? Are they "no big deal"?
Quote » Of course cheating is wrong. I never said otherwise. I jusr mentioned that while it is still considered wrong, not many people get excited when they hear about someone cheating. Mostly because it's so common today. That attitude makes me weep for the future.
Quote, originally posted by Reflex5.5 » The fact that you don't agree with point doesn't mean there isn't one. I agree with that, but I don't want to see a thread get shut down for arguing off topic.
Quote, originally posted by Reflex5.5 » Adultery last time I checked is not a crime, so he can't be guilty of it. As for the rape, if he is guilty he should rot in jail. Personally, I don't think he did it. Actually, one of definition of guilty is defined as: Responsible for a reprehensible act; deserving of blame. The dictionary actually uses the example of guilty of cheating; the guilty party. So, technically, Kobe is guilty of adultery, and I hope he feels horrible and very guilty for doing it. I just can't imagine someone cheating on a spouse. That's just sick in my mind.
Quote, originally posted by ZeRo_C0oL » That's really not for us to decide... But look at the facts: He's worth a LOT of money, and he's a celebrity. A lot of women would sleep with him based on that alone, right? This isn't the first time something like this has happened. I really don't think Kobe Bryant would need to resort to raping a woman, with that said. Regardless, this is just smearing his name in the dirt and regardless of the outcome in court, I think this is going to ruin his life. Sure, he's still got it made in comparison to the average man, but no one's going to want to use him in a commercial, because his name is associated with this now. Whether he did it or not, he's still always going to be associated with this B.S.
I hope they find him to be innocent and that he can continue on with his life where he left off.
BTW, did you guys see on the news where he bought his wife a 4 million dollar diamond ring? It was 8 karots! WOW! ...and he supposedly wasn't even in the dog house. Luckily for him, his wife is standing by him through this. I hope she doesn't divorce him when it's all over and take the rest of his money. Poor guy. (
They were talking about Kobe on the radio this morning and how sales of his jersey went up 50% in the last week. Who knows if that's true or not though.
Quote, originally posted by mbuxton » They were talking about Kobe on the radio this morning and how sales of his jersey went up 50% in the last week. Who knows if that's true or not though.
all publicity is good publicity. as long as he doesnt end up in prison, this experience will end up helping him and those companies he represents, i'm sad to say
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