Nikola Latest to Announce EV Pick-Up Truck
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    1. #1
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      Nikola Latest to Announce EV Pick-Up Truck

      https://www.autoblog.com/2020/02/11/...-pickup-truck/

      The Badger will be designed with help from someone called "Heavy D", from Discovery Channel's "Diesel Brothers". That should help them sell it to the skeptical coal-rolling crowd. It will also use a hydrogen fuel cell to achieve a max mileage of 600.

      We still have a couple of years to wait for the production version of the Nikola semi. That hasn't stopped the Phoenix-based EV startup from announcing its next concept, the Badger electric pickup truck. Beyond the name, what stands out most about this new front in the EV pickup wars is that it appears Nikola plans to offer two versions: One has a battery-electric powertrain, the other a combination fuel-cell and battery-electric powertrain. The BEV model can go 300 miles on a charge; pairing it with the hydrogen fuel-cell stack doubles range to an estimated 600 miles, the push of a button in the cabin enabling the "battery-blend" mode. Continuous horsepower comes in at 455, peaking at 906 hp, torque rated at 980 pound-feet. With the help of a supercapacitor launch system that helps deliver repeatable performance, zero to 60 miles per hour takes just 2.9 seconds.
      Whereas Rivian's gone for the adventure market, Nikola's looking at fleet/work truck/construction operators as well. Said CEO Trevor Milton, the Badger "can handle a full day's worth of work without running out of energy. This electric truck can be used for work, weekend getaways, towing, off-roading or to hit the ski slopes without performance loss. No other electric pickup can operate in these temperatures and conditions." The firm tabbed Dave Sparks, otherwise known as Heavy D from the Discovery Channel show "Diesel Brothers," to help with the design and development "in real-world environments;" his efforts will be part of a video series documenting the Badger's birth and progress.

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    3. #2
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      The "Management Changes at Ford" thread brings all of this new pick-up truck news into perspective.
      Not all of these EV truck start-ups will survive, but there will definitely be a time when more than just Chevy, GMC, Toyota, Nissan and Ram will be coming after Ford's money maker. Ford will also field its own EV, but it will face more competition than ever before from Workhorse, Rivian, Hummer, Tesla, Bollinger, and now Nikola. All of these companies must sense some vulnerability at Ford, to make a run at them so hard.

    4. #3
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      Hydrogen? Really? And people claim there's insufficient electrical charging infrastructure.

      Quote Originally Posted by article
      No other electric pickup can operate in these temperatures and conditions.
      Uhh, there are NO electric pickup trucks.

    5. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      The "Management Changes at Ford" thread brings all of this new pick-up truck news into perspective.
      Not all of these EV truck start-ups will survive, but there will definitely be a time when more than just Chevy, GMC, Toyota, Nissan and Ram will be coming after Ford's money maker. Ford will also field its own EV, but it will face more competition than ever before from Workhorse, Rivian, Hummer, Tesla, Bollinger, and now Nikola. All of these companies must sense some vulnerability at Ford, to make a run at them so hard.
      It's not a vulnerability exactly. It's just that fact that the pickup market in the US is a HUGE pie. Even a small slice is worth it. The Big 3 sell what, 2.5 MILLION trucks a year? That's what Toyota and Nissan went after. Even the table scraps are in the high tens of thousands.

    6. #5
      Member robr2's Avatar
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      Am I the only one that pictures cough when I read Nee-Ko-La.

    7. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by robr2 View Post
      Am I the only one that pictures cough when I read Nee-Ko-La.
      You mean a guy in small pants blowing an alphorn?
      "The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering."
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    8. #7
      Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by 2 doors View Post
      Hydrogen? Really? And people claim there's insufficient electrical charging infrastructure.



      another easy VC cash grab though.

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      Quote Originally Posted by 2 doors View Post
      Hydrogen? Really? And people claim there's insufficient electrical charging infrastructure.
      That's likely going to change very soon. Hydrogen fuel cell infrastructure will be driven by the commercial trucking world. The estimated compound annual growth rate of fuel cell commercial vehicles is ~45% from 2019 to 2025, as opposed to EV's which is 21% projected out to 2030. So magnitudes higher growth rate, and that's basically driven by the commercial market. Hydrogen fuel cells provide the commercial world with similar ranges and fill up times, while being zero emissions. The economic incentives are much higher, and thus we will see a huge boom in Hydrogen fuel cell infrastructure over the next few years.

      That being said, fuel cells don't make as much sense for passenger cars but that's another topic all together.
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    10. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sledge View Post
      You mean a guy in small pants blowing an alphorn?
      Yep.

    11. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast View Post
      That's likely going to change very soon. Hydrogen fuel cell infrastructure will be driven by the commercial trucking world.
      Two words: Tesla Semi. Hydrogen isn't going anywhere.
      "The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering."
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    12. #11
      Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast View Post
      That's likely going to change very soon. Hydrogen fuel cell infrastructure will be driven by the commercial trucking world. The estimated compound annual growth rate of fuel cell commercial vehicles is ~45% from 2019 to 2025, as opposed to EV's which is 21% projected out to 2030. So magnitudes higher growth rate, and that's basically driven by the commercial market. Hydrogen fuel cells provide the commercial world with similar ranges and fill up times, while being zero emissions. The economic incentives are much higher, and thus we will see a huge boom in Hydrogen fuel cell infrastructure over the next few years.

      That being said, fuel cells don't make as much sense for passenger cars but that's another topic all together.
      percentages are nice but whats the total count?

    13. #12
      Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      Nikola has partnered with IVECO in Europe, so they are moving forward. Not sure about a pickup for them though.

      Nikola Motors Locks In Ulm, Germany As The Production Site For The Nikola TRE


      Nikola Motors has partnered with IVECO to establish the manufacturing hub for its first production vehicle in Ulm, Germany. The facility will produce both the battery electric and fuel cell electric versions of the the company’s cab-over heavy duty truck for the European market, the Nikola TRE.

      IVECO and parter company FPT Industrial are the commercial vehicle and powertrain brands of parent company CNH Industrial. If the name sounds familiar, it’s because CNH Industrial rolled a cool $250 million investment into Nikola Motors just a few months ago in September 2019. Leveraging the heavy truck manufacturing prowess of IVECO was clearly the plan and indeed, the current version of the Nikola TRE that’s in development is directly based on IVECO’s S-Way platform.

      “Our European joint-venture with NIKOLA and today’s announcement, is real proof that zero-emission long-haul transport is becoming a reality, resulting in tangible environmental benefits for Europe’s long distance hauliers and its citizens,” said Hubertus Mühlhäuser, Chief Executive Officer, CNH Industrial. “The decision to build the Nikola TRE in Ulm – a center of heavy-duty truck engineering excellence – underscores the site’s strategic location at the heart of Germany’s fuel cell technology cluster.”

      The company notes that the battery electric version of the Nikola TRE is being viewed as the predecessor to the fuel cell electric vehicle build as it will establish many of the core components shared in both vehicles. Both the battery electric and fuel cell electric configuration will use electric motors to move the vehicle forward as well as a large battery used to power those motors. In the battery electric version, the vehicle can even use the same battery as in the fuel cell electric configuration with a reduced range. Alternately, the primary battery could be scaled up to achieve longer ranges, depending on the specific use case.

      The battery electric version of the Nikola TRE will initially be available as a 4×2 and 6×2 articulated truck with modular batteries that can be sized to meet the needs of the customer, up to 720 kWh. The electric powertrain responsible for all the heavy lifting when it comes time to work can lay down 480 kW of continuous power output.

      IVECO currently performs chassis engineering at its facility in Ulm, Germany which is located in the heart of the Germany automotive industry and in the state of Baden-Württemberg. The region is also home to Porsche, Daimler, Bosch, and saw the world’s first 4-wheeled combustion engine-powered vehicle come into existence.

      The area has a rich history not only in the automotive industry, but in technology. Being close to legacy automotive companies and their suppliers make the area even more attractive as the German auto industry pivots en masse towards the next-generation of automotive powertrain technologies.

      The new joint venture will kick off with a €40 million investment into the existing Ulm facility to prepare it to be used as the final assembly point of the Nikola TRE. The companies expect production to start at the new facility in Q1 2021, with the first deliveries of the first battery electric trucks following closely behind. Hydrogen fuel cell electric configurations of the TRE will be built leveraging the EU-funded H2Haul project in 2021 with plans to make it to the market in 2023.

    14. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      Nikola has partnered with IVECO in Europe, so they are moving forward. Not sure about a pickup for them though.

      Nikola Motors Locks In Ulm, Germany As The Production Site For The Nikola TRE
      From the article in the OP:

      Nikola said it's working with an OEM partner and the "Badger will be built in conjunction with another OEM utilizing their certified parts and manufacturing facilities," but wouldn't name the OEM.
      This has to be FCA (Ram).
      Ford is tied up with Rivian.
      GM backed out of a deal with Rivian, in favor of its own internal solution.
      Nissan probably has no appetite to do any further development on trucks.
      Toyota has its own hydrogen and EV programs, and its own truck platform. They don't need partners.

      FCA is in the worst position for EVs, out of any major OEM, with a pick-up truck. They need a partner.

    15. #14
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      They need to pick a different name. "Nikola" screams "Tesla copycat" to me.

    16. #15
      Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast View Post
      That's likely going to change very soon. Hydrogen fuel cell infrastructure will be driven by the commercial trucking world. The estimated compound annual growth rate of fuel cell commercial vehicles is ~45% from 2019 to 2025, as opposed to EV's which is 21% projected out to 2030. So magnitudes higher growth rate, and that's basically driven by the commercial market. Hydrogen fuel cells provide the commercial world with similar ranges and fill up times, while being zero emissions. The economic incentives are much higher, and thus we will see a huge boom in Hydrogen fuel cell infrastructure over the next few years.

      That being said, fuel cells don't make as much sense for passenger cars but that's another topic all together.

      Username checks out.
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    17. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sledge View Post
      Two words: Tesla Semi. Hydrogen isn't going anywhere.
      To be honest, that thought process just isn't shared in the long-range trucking world. That's why the big players in the commercial trucking world including: Kenworth, Toyota, Cummins, Peterbilt, Hyundai and more are all invested in Hydrogen Fuel Cell use for Class 8 commercial applications. To date, the majority of the heavy trucking industry is focusing on HFCEV's above BEV's. This is mostly due to the range restrictions as the 300-500 mile range estimate for the Tesla Semi's is dwarfed by even mediocre diesel class 8's that all have above 2,000+ mile range.

      SAE Article on this: https://saemobilus.sae.org/power/fea...el-cell-trucks

      This is not to say there isn't interest in the short range regional trucking world; Tesla and Volvo are working on their short range Class 8's as we speak. It's just a very niche and small chunk of the trucking industry where range is less of an issue. Again, this is in contrast to the passenger car world where EV's and PHEV's make much more sense.

      Quote Originally Posted by ValveCoverGasket View Post
      percentages are nice but whats the total count?
      Right now the total count of fuel cell class 8 trucks being developed is already higher than full EV class 8 trucks. This number is expected to only increase with time according to estimations by industry professionals because battery only EV's don't make the most sense for this application as talked about above.

      Also why is there such a divide where people support full EV's but not FCEV's? They are literally the same thing, except that the FCEV's are just EV's with a hydrogen range extender.
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    18. #17
      Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast View Post
      Also why is there such a divide where people support full EV's but not FCEV's? They are literally the same thing, except that the FCEV's are just EV's with a hydrogen range extender.
      Because hydrogen is mostly being researched because governments are throwing money at it. BEVs are already practical (within their inherent limitations) and are becoming cost effective rather quickly. If we get to the point of having solid state batteries then they'll be able to be filled at a much faster rate, completely removing the biggest advantage of liquid fueling.

      Hydrogen, while abundant, is energy negative and since it's the smallest element in the universe it's exceedingly hard to stop it from leaking. There is also almost no infrastructure, unlike wall sockets, which are everywhere.


      Did I mention hydrogen was energy negative?
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    19. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast View Post
      To be honest, that thought process just isn't shared in the long-range trucking world. That's why the big players in the commercial trucking world including: Kenworth, Toyota, Cummins, Peterbilt, Hyundai and more are all invested in Hydrogen Fuel Cell use for Class 8 commercial applications. To date, the majority of the heavy trucking industry is focusing on HFCEV's above BEV's. This is mostly due to the range restrictions as the 300-500 mile range estimate for the Tesla Semi's is dwarfed by even mediocre diesel class 8's that all have above 2,000+ mile range.

      SAE Article on this: https://saemobilus.sae.org/power/fea...el-cell-trucks

      This is not to say there isn't interest in the short range regional trucking world; Tesla and Volvo are working on their short range Class 8's as we speak. It's just a very niche and small chunk of the trucking industry where range is less of an issue. Again, this is in contrast to the passenger car world where EV's and PHEV's make much more sense.
      Tesla will begin selling limited production of Semis at the end of this year. This will coincide will a rollout of a Megacharger network that will initially service (in terms of location) their first Semi customers which requires connecting to the existing electrical grid.

      The only company you mentioned that has a fuel cell product in production is Toyota and sales of the Mirai are barely a gnat's eyelash in size. Plus it is a family sedan. This needs to scale to provide decent power to an 80000lb truck which has not been proven. Also there are currently 39 hydrogen refueling stations in the US. *39*. To set up a station you will need an underground, very strong tank (to deal with long term hydrogen embrittlement) with a pump that can safely pressurize an inflammable gas.

      Some time ago in Norway there was one company providing hydrogen to fuel cell car owners. One of their stations exploded. The company shut down all stations just in case this was a network-wide issue. Every FC car owner now had an unusable 1.5 ton paperweight for *months*. Trucking companies will not tolerate that kind of interruption.

      Provide a decent charging network and massive range does not matter.
      Last edited by Sledge; 02-12-2020 at 07:21 PM.
      "The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering."
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    20. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sledge View Post
      Tesla will begin selling limited production of Semis at the end of this year. This will coincide will a rollout of a Megacharger network that will initially service (in terms of location) their first Semi customers which requires connecting to the existing electrical grid.

      The only company you mentioned that has a fuel cell product in production is Toyota and sales of the Mirai are barely a gnat's eyelash in size. Plus it is a family sedan. This needs to scale to provide decent power to an 80000lb truck which has not been proven. Also there are currently 39 hydrogen refueling stations in the US. *39*. To set up a station you will need an underground, very strong tank (to deal with long term hydrogen embrittlement) with a pump that can safely pressurize an inflammable gas.

      Some time ago in Norway there was one company providing hydrogen to fuel cell car owners. One of their stations exploded. The company shut down all stations just in case this was a network-wide issue. Every FC car owner now had an unusable 1.5 ton paperweight for *months*. Trucking companies will not tolerate that kind of interruption.

      Provide a decent charging network and massive range does not matter.
      Add to the above that freight rail could electrify in an eyeblink, given that they already own the rights of way needed and don't need to wait for battery tech to catch up to their needs.

      All the heavy trucking companies "deeply invested" in hydrogen are just as deeply if not more so in non-fueled BEV architectures. In many cases the H2 research is exactly as described above, a product of following the money available. Since FCV research can be directly applicable to BEV products, it makes sense to chase those grants in many cases.
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    21. #20
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      Because hydrogen is mostly being researched because governments are throwing money at it. BEVs are already practical (within their inherent limitations) and are becoming cost effective rather quickly. If we get to the point of having solid state batteries then they'll be able to be filled at a much faster rate, completely removing the biggest advantage of liquid fueling.

      Hydrogen, while abundant, is energy negative and since it's the smallest element in the universe it's exceedingly hard to stop it from leaking. There is also almost no infrastructure, unlike wall sockets, which are everywhere.


      Did I mention hydrogen was energy negative?
      I love the love affair for H by those who forgot chemistry lessons from their high school years. As you explained: The most reactive element, H readily bonds to other elements, so it has to have energy applied to separate it from whatever it's attached to before it can be exclusively used. That takes more energy that what H can deliver... Ergo, energy negative. And that's not even taking into consideration the energy needed to store it in a usable manner. Hah!

    22. #21
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      And don't forget that Tesla is adding platooning to Autopilot for Semis which, according to Elon for a 3+ truck group, makes trucking as cheap or cheaper than shipping by rail.
      "The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering."
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    23. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sledge View Post
      And don't forget that Tesla is adding platooning to Autopilot for Semis which, according to Elon for a 3+ truck group, makes trucking as cheap or cheaper than shipping by rail.
      That's just what we need. 3 big ass semi trucks going the speed limit on the interstate at 50 feet apart.

    24. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast View Post

      Also why is there such a divide where people support full EV's but not FCEV's? They are literally the same thing, except that the FCEV's are just EV's with a hydrogen range extender.
      The Hindenburg explosion has been a PR nightmare for hydrogen, for the last 83 years!

    25. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast View Post

      Also why is there such a divide where people support full EV's but not FCEV's? They are literally the same thing, except that the FCEV's are just EV's with a hydrogen range extender.
      Two things:

      A) the divide cuts both ways, as can be seen on this forum. There are very loud pro-hydrogen folks who advocate against BEV only R&D.

      B) the advantage of FCEVs is viewed by many in the BEV community as being driven purely by convenience, not by energy efficiency, environmental impact, or cost: benefit. The net energy negative status of commercial hydrogen, exacerbated by the relative inefficiency of the fuel cells themselves, don't engender a lot of love from folks who are still largely driven by ideals of energy conservation or efficiency nerds. The added cost of fuel and infrastructure tends to turn off the folks who have joined the BEV ranks in pursuit of a cheap bottom line.

      Add in that a lot of folks outside either community lump them together and it becomes a competition for research money and time.
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    26. #25
      Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by turbinepowered View Post
      Two things:

      A) the divide cuts both ways, as can be seen on this forum. There are very loud pro-hydrogen folks who advocate against BEV only R&D.

      B) the advantage of FCEVs is viewed by many in the BEV community as being driven purely by convenience, not by energy efficiency, environmental impact, or cost: benefit. The net energy negative status of commercial hydrogen, exacerbated by the relative inefficiency of the fuel cells themselves, don't engender a lot of love from folks who are still largely driven by ideals of energy conservation or efficiency nerds. The added cost of fuel and infrastructure tends to turn off the folks who have joined the BEV ranks in pursuit of a cheap bottom line.

      Add in that a lot of folks outside either community lump them together and it becomes a competition for research money and time.
      All of this, but then you have to also add in the people who see hydrogen as "The Hindenburg" and little else.

      If hydrogen were viable it might override at least some of the safety concerns, but there are too many fundamental problems with it for me to take it seriously. Sure, governments are throwing money at it (which is why you're seeing as much research as you are) but that's about the only reason.

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