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    1. #51
      Member Crispyfritter's Avatar
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      This is a great project! Loving the depths you're going to to get what you want.

      Chris
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    3. #52
      Member Jettaboy1884's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Crispyfritter View Post
      This is a great project! Loving the depths you're going to to get what you want.

      Chris
      Thanks! I have a bad habit of letting things snowball and it's really hard to not let that happen, especially when there's no real "hard deadline" to have this thing on the road...

      Not a lot to show at the moment, I've only gotten two intake ports done so-far. In the meantime here's a picture of the intake manifold. This thing is heavy, and pretty grimy:



      I will be taking off the throttle body to clean things up. I am debating whether to bore the primary tube (common mod) or just clean and reinstall... It's hard to see from this angle, but there is a venturi cast into the primary bore even though the primary butterfly is actually a fair bit larger:


      And I need to clean and hone this EGR port. It is common for these to clog up over time and throw a CEL:


    4. #53
      Member Mr Miyagi's Avatar
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      Talk about snowball!

    5. #54
      Member Stevo12's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jettaboy1884 View Post
      Thanks! I have a bad habit of letting things snowball and it's really hard to not let that happen, especially when there's no real "hard deadline" to have this thing on the road...

      Not a lot to show at the moment, I've only gotten two intake ports done so-far. In the meantime here's a picture of the intake manifold. This thing is heavy, and pretty grimy:

      Is it a variable runner intake manifold, judging by the vacuum actuator on the side?

      I did an intake swap on a Mercedes M272 (3.0L out of a C300) and after removing the throttle body, it looked like a torture chamber in there. Similar to yours, it weighed a ton as well. Went to a plastic intake manifold from a C350 without the variable runners, mostly for simplicity rather than power, since we were keeping the stock 3.0L throttle body.

      Makes sense if it's variable runner. The Audi V6 has good midrange power, now I know why. There's a lot of technology packed into a motor that was essentially designed in the 80s.

    6. #55

      B5 A4

      Hey nice job on everything so far. I have had my 96 A4, V6 since new, almost 250K and just timing belts so far, and of course front suspension parts. Again, nice work.

    7. #56
      Member Lujess's Avatar
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      Great pics and detail on your progress. Looking forward to more.
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    8. #57
      Member Jettaboy1884's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Mr Miyagi View Post
      Talk about snowball!
      Yeah, no kidding! I was planning to pull the manifold and clean the EGR & TB, and port-match the runners sometime later, but as soon as I saw the missing vac line and broken PCV hoses I knew it wouldn't run well after the TB/WP job. Also, the access is a LOT easier with the front end off as I am barely leaning over to get to stuff.

      Quote Originally Posted by Stevo12 View Post
      Is it a variable runner intake manifold, judging by the vacuum actuator on the side?

      I did an intake swap on a Mercedes M272 (3.0L out of a C300) and after removing the throttle body, it looked like a torture chamber in there. Similar to yours, it weighed a ton as well. Went to a plastic intake manifold from a C350 without the variable runners, mostly for simplicity rather than power, since we were keeping the stock 3.0L throttle body.

      Makes sense if it's variable runner. The Audi V6 has good midrange power, now I know why. There's a lot of technology packed into a motor that was essentially designed in the 80s.
      Good eye, yes it's a variable runner and it weighs quite a bit fully assembled. Unfortunately no simpler or lighter versions available for this one, as the 12v got very little aftermarket development. Here's a pic (not mine) of what it looks like inside:



      About 15 years back a guy named Mance Etheredge really dug into modifying the 12v intake system. It's a nice setup with a lot of opportunity to gain power through gasket matching and smoothing things out, however it takes a lot of time and grinding consumables to get there.

      Quote Originally Posted by RandyP63 View Post
      Hey nice job on everything so far. I have had my 96 A4, V6 since new, almost 250K and just timing belts so far, and of course front suspension parts. Again, nice work.
      Thanks, and that's great to hear! I've read a few anecdotal stories about people doing headgaskets around the 250k range and finding clean cylinder bores with cross hatch still visible.

      Quote Originally Posted by Lujess View Post
      Great pics and detail on your progress. Looking forward to more.
      Thanks. I've been working on it regularly but there's not much interesting to show. I've got all six intake ports matched now and I also have the EGR port cleaned out, which was nearly clogged with solid buildup. And lastly, I'll be doing a very mild smoothing of the throttle body before I put it back on.

    9. #58
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jettaboy1884 View Post
      About 15 years back a guy named Mance Etheredge really dug into modifying the 12v intake system. It's a nice setup with a lot of opportunity to gain power through gasket matching and smoothing things out, however it takes a lot of time and grinding consumables to get there.
      All of which would be easily bested by a simple 1.8T with a chip.

      I would keep removing parts and find a smashed version with a 1.8T. Simpler, lighter (better handling) and more power, with better MPG. There is a reason everyone on quattroworld tries to avoid these engines. Heavy, inefficient, slow. They are understressed tho; so if you can keep up with keeping all the gaskets and leaks in check, I would think they'd run to close to forever.

    10. #59
      Quote Originally Posted by ADDvanced View Post
      There is a reason everyone on quattroworld tries to avoid these engines. Heavy, inefficient, slow. They are understressed tho; so if you can keep up with keeping all the gaskets and leaks in check, I would think they'd run to close to forever.
      A boat anchor definitely. Yet with all its plastic covers it looks big an LS V8


      Were these even slower than the prior gen USAspec 90series 1993-1995

    11. #60
      Member The A1 and A2 German's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ADDvanced View Post
      All of which would be easily bested by a simple 1.8T with a chip.
      Also known as the thee worst VAG motor ever made, the 2.8l V6, reliable yes...but lack luster and it's worst attribute, no opportunity to grow. If you ever get the itch for a 1.8t scratch it. If you ever get the itch to add a single aftermarket modification to the V6, let it itch it's worthless to do. To drive my point, it wouldn't even be worth just the time and labor to install said parts...even if they were free...hence the term 'The worst VAG motor ever made."

      On a good note, they're bullet proof, go and go and go and go...they're like a Mk1 Rabbit 1.8l 8v...beat the snot outta them no issues.

      Had all kinds of goodies, it's performance was....mewh.
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    12. #61
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      A V6 with a manual trans is a pretty nice setup. So much smoother to cruise in than a 1.8T. I also like the nice flat torque curve, it seems more like a luxury car compared to the 1.8T.

      I do wonder if the 30V heads would fit on the 12V motor? It does provide more hp, but they are a pain to work on.
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    13. #62
      Member Jettaboy1884's Avatar
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      Since we're bashing the 12v let me set the record straight as I specifically sought-out this motor:

      Quote Originally Posted by ADDvanced View Post
      All of which would be easily bested by a simple 1.8T with a chip.
      Sure, but where's the fun in that? Turbo fours and "tuner" modifying has never really appealed to me. The 12v has smooth power delivery and IMO sounds great on the induction and exhaust side.

      Quote Originally Posted by ADDvanced View Post
      I would keep removing parts and find a smashed version with a 1.8T. Simpler, lighter (better handling) and more power, with better MPG. There is a reason everyone on quattroworld tries to avoid these engines. Heavy, inefficient, slow. They are understressed tho; so if you can keep up with keeping all the gaskets and leaks in check, I would think they'd run to close to forever.
      Agreed on lighter and better handling, sure. But the 1.8t is hardly "simple" and has it's fair share of little issues as well.

      I say this seriously: If I really wanted to go the "simple and light" route I'd sooner build and swap in a 2.0L 8v turbo than a 20v. That's how much I don't care for the 20v motor...

      As for gaskets and leaks, the earlier AAH 12v was a lot more problematic in this area. This later AFC 12v has a revised oil system and different valve covers and gaskets, so they are not as leaky as the earlier verison. And to be fair, the large mess across the front side was due to a neglected leaking PS hose. There was a bottle of fluid in the trunk, and the hose clamp was cranked down hard, so the PO knew about this.


      Quote Originally Posted by ImpeccableNEW View Post
      A boat anchor definitely. Yet with all its plastic covers it looks big an LS V8


      Were these even slower than the prior gen USAspec 90series 1993-1995
      At a glance it looks like the A4 is about a second slower to 60 MPH. There are certainly much better cars for going fast, so it's a good thing speed isn't my goal here.


      Quote Originally Posted by The A1 and A2 German View Post
      Also known as the thee worst VAG motor ever made, the 2.8l V6, reliable yes...but lack luster and it's worst attribute, no opportunity to grow. If you ever get the itch for a 1.8t scratch it. If you ever get the itch to add a single aftermarket modification to the V6, let it itch it's worthless to do. To drive my point, it wouldn't even be worth just the time and labor to install said parts...even if they were free...hence the term 'The worst VAG motor ever made."
      Early versions had leaky gaskets, but let's be honest and admit that nearly every VAG engine has trouble spots to be addressed. And to your point, it's a one-off engine featured in the workhorse trim cars and is "lackluster" compared to the legendary I5 before it, and the tuner-friendly 1.8t.

      I will disagree with you about the room to grow. There's plenty of ways to wake up the 12v but due to the lack of aftermarket they (generally) can't be bought. Cars are a hobby for me and my hobby labor is free so "worth" is a personal decision. I'd get a lot more satisfaction and pride from grinding out an intake manifold vs. being like everyone else and chipping a 1.8t.

      Quote Originally Posted by The A1 and A2 German View Post
      On a good note, they're bullet proof, go and go and go and go...they're like a Mk1 Rabbit 1.8l 8v...beat the snot outta them no issues.
      I happen to have a lot of experience with Mk1 & Mk2 8v engines and agree on the comparison. And besides, I knew a cheap B5 would need a lot of work so I wanted to give myself a fighting chance.

      Quote Originally Posted by The A1 and A2 German View Post
      Had all kinds of goodies, it's performance was....mewh.
      I guess it comes down to expectations, if you are used to faster cars then I could see modifying one of these being a letdown.

      Quote Originally Posted by PZ View Post
      A V6 with a manual trans is a pretty nice setup. So much smoother to cruise in than a 1.8T. I also like the nice flat torque curve, it seems more like a luxury car compared to the 1.8T.

      I do wonder if the 30V heads would fit on the 12V motor? It does provide more hp, but they are a pain to work on.
      ^ Thanks, that's more along the lines of what I'm going for. Honestly, I'd rather have the slower V6 with it's sound and power delivery over a tunable engine...

      The interior of the V6 cars is a really nice place to be. And if you're shopping for a B5 under $1k the 1.8t cars are pretty beat. Engine preference aside, $1k usually gets a much nicer condition (and cared for) V6 B5.

      I don't know if the 30v heads would fit, but they are more complex and only gain about 20hp over the 12v. Aside from a SC kit ($$$) and questionable results from chipping, the 30v isn't any more modifiable than the 12v anyway.
      Last edited by Jettaboy1884; 05-26-2020 at 10:55 AM.

    14. #63
      Member atomicalex's Avatar
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      Chipping is pointless on both the 12V and 30V motors.

      Just relax and enjoy it. It's a solid lump and doesn't even require much in PMs.

      <-- die-hard 1.8t person.
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    15. #64
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      The Mance bored out MAF and Throttle Body are about the best/only mods to do to the 12v. Maybe some kind of header would help too, but that's TONS of work, and not sure there are any non-customs options for them.

      Chip on the 30v only smoothed out he mid-range intake change over...the bored out MAF helped more.
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    16. #65
      Member Jettaboy1884's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
      Chipping is pointless on both the 12V and 30V motors.

      Just relax and enjoy it. It's a solid lump and doesn't even require much in PMs.

      <-- die-hard 1.8t person.
      I'm not even sure the B5 12v can be chipped. Hitachi ECU? I haven't checked... And yeah, that's the idea.

      Quote Originally Posted by JMURiz View Post
      The Mance bored out MAF and Throttle Body are about the best/only mods to do to the 12v. Maybe some kind of header would help too, but that's TONS of work, and not sure there are any non-customs options for them.

      Chip on the 30v only smoothed out he mid-range intake change over...the bored out MAF helped more.
      The only headers I've come across were custom built, and probably by Mance as well. The AFC in the B5 has the better flowing exhaust manifolds vs. the AAH in the B4, so at least I've got that... MAF and throttle body will happen down the road, but since there's an exhaust leak I've got a good excuse to put on a better flowing exhaust soon.

      As for updates: I finished up the fuel injector port matching this weekend and successfully cleaned up all the shavings. I also cleaned the throttle body and EGR port. Now I have to order some more parts and finally transition to reassembly!

      Nothing exciting, but here are a few pictures of progress. The EGR port was essentially clogged, now it's clean:



      One bank of port-matching. The light exaggerates the different sanding grits (120/150) but they are smooth to the touch:



      Short of fully disassembling it, the throttle body is much cleaner. And I decided to forego the porting for now as I have so many other things to focus on. Besides, I'd like to drive it stock for a while so I can enjoy the modifications later.



      Here's a before and after of one of the spark plug wells. They were all like this and I am glad I cleaned them out, I would have definitely gotten crud in the cylinder if I hadn't:



      Last edited by Jettaboy1884; 05-26-2020 at 10:01 PM.

    17. #66
      Member Jettaboy1884's Avatar
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      I have been really hesitant to keep pulling parts just because "I might as well change this while I'm in here" reason...

      However, I noticed some of these coolant hoses by the oil heat exchanger didn't look to be in good condition:




      And I am glad I decided to take them off... Here's the old hose next to the replacement for comparison:


    18. #67
      Quote Originally Posted by Jettaboy1884 View Post
      I have been really hesitant to keep pulling parts just because "I might as well change this while I'm in here" reason...

      However, I noticed some of these coolant hoses by the oil heat exchanger didn't look to be in good condition:




      And I am glad I decided to take them off... Here's the old hose next to the replacement for comparison:

      Man that’s nasty. Good thing you decided to check it out.


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    19. #68
      Member Jettaboy1884's Avatar
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      ^ Yeah, definitely was worth pulling that hose off...

      Last night I was wire wheeling the hard pipe (you can see the crust in the picture) and I broke through a weak spot:



      I found that 3/16" vacuum hose fits perfectly on 3/16" brake line as one might expect. There are a couple runs of hard plastic line that were very brittle, so I'll replace them with this.


    20. #69
      Member Jettaboy1884's Avatar
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      Not a lot to show, but I've been making progress and have even installed a few new parts: Throttle body is bolted back on, and I cleaned the valley pan cover & installed a new gasket. I've also made another parts order and have spent ~ $500 so-far.

      Last night I changed the front cam seals, which of course required pulling the valve covers and cam cap... The VC gaskets were in good shape (I'm still replacing them) but I'm glad I got the covers off so that I can clean out the PCV mesh:



      And these things are pretty grimy in general:


    21. #70
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jettaboy1884 View Post
      Not a lot to show, but I've been making progress and have even installed a few new parts: Throttle body is bolted back on, and I cleaned the valley pan cover & installed a new gasket. I've also made another parts order and have spent ~ $500 so-far.

      Last night I changed the front cam seals, which of course required pulling the valve covers and cam cap... The VC gaskets were in good shape (I'm still replacing them) but I'm glad I got the covers off so that I can clean out the PCV mesh:

      And these things are pretty grimy in general:
      What are you going to use to clean out the PCV mesh?

    22. #71
      Member Jettaboy1884's Avatar
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      Right now they are sitting in a tub of soapy water but that won't do much...

      It looks like the mesh pieces are held on with four clips, so I'll try to carefully remove them. I'll see how far I can get with degreaser and nylon brushes, then hit the metal bits with carb cleaner if needed.

      This car has made me realize I need a parts cleaner...

    23. #72
      Member Jettaboy1884's Avatar
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      Inside the valve cover PCV baffle are ~ five layers (joined together) of perforated plates and then this partitioned chamber. The trim ring was easy to remove by carefully using a small prying tool under the clips.

      This photo is after I soaked them in soapy water and rinsed with the garden hose, which obviously didn't do much. There's about 1/4" of built up grime inside the chamber. Now I've got the baffles soaking in Easy-Off, and will clean the plastic covers with degreaser and a brush.




      I am having trouble finding a replacement coolant pipe. I passed on a new one for ~ $10 from a rather non-reputable seller, and there are used ones on Ebay for around $40 plus. So in the meantime I've decided to cobble together an alternative using some metal fittings and a hose in place of the hard pipe. This adds two additional hose clamp connections over the original piece, but I can live with that for about $20 in fittings and hose.


    24. #73
      Member atomicalex's Avatar
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      Your non-crack pipe is going to probably last longer than the OEM one, too!

      I find it completely hilarious that no matter what, one of the defining features of a VW is a busted crack pipe.
      I AM DISCO DIVA!
      たくさんとうふ、よ Where did all these damn Toyotas come from?
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    25. #74
      Member Crispyfritter's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
      Your non-crack pipe is going to probably last longer than the OEM one, too!

      I find it completely hilarious that no matter what, one of the defining features of a VW is a busted crack pipe.
      I think that they've just come to the place where they're obligated to engineer it in there. The best jokes are the ones played out over time.

      Chris
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    26. #75
      Member atomicalex's Avatar
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      Oh hell yes.

      When I had to do mine on the wagon, it was my only car at the time, so I had to ride the BMW to get the part. Of course, it's too big to fit in the side case, so I have to either tie it down to the seat or stuff it in my jacket or go home and get a milk crate. I went home and got a milk crate, zip tied it to the bike, and went and got my crack pipe. Meanwhile, I am texting a motorcycle friend about this indignity, and my friend literally said "WTF kind of crack pipe is that big?"

      I was like lol when you have no VWs....
      I AM DISCO DIVA!
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