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And you thought it was over... CARB, Automakers & The Trump Administration

13K views 256 replies 51 participants last post by  Yuppie Scum 
#1 ·
Remember this? https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...-efficiency-standards-of-cars&highlight=Trump

Ford, VW, Honda and BMW will stay neutral on challenges to Trump emissions rule
General Motors, Fiat Chrysler and Toyota have sided with the Trump administration
Reuters
Jun 27th 2020 at 1:15PM

WASHINGTON — Four major automakers will not take a position on legal challenges to the Trump administration's decision to dramatically weaken Obama-era fuel economy standards but want to weigh in on any court fix, according to a document seen by Reuters.

The Trump administration in March finalized rollback of U.S. vehicle emissions standards to require 1.5% annual increases in efficiency through 2026. That is far weaker than the 5% annual increases in the discarded rules adopted under President Barack Obama.

Ford, Volkswagen, Honda and BMW struck a voluntary agreement with California in July 2019 on vehicle emissions rules. On Monday, the four automakers plan to ask a U.S. Appeals Court in Washington for permission to be heard in the court challenge "to ensure that any remedy imposed by this court is both appropriate and achievable," according to a draft of the filing.

Last month, a group of 23 U.S. states led by California, as well as the District of Columbia and some major cities, challenged the Trump vehicle rule.

Volkswagen said on Friday its "preference continues to be one set of national standards that’s achieved through an agreement between the federal government and California."

Other major automakers like General Motors, Fiat Chrysler and Toyota have sided with the Trump administration on the rollback. Those companies also sided with the Trump administration in a separate lawsuit over whether the federal government can strip California of the right to set zero emission vehicle requirements.

California Air Resources Board chair Mary Nichols told Reuters on Wednesday the board hopes to finalize the voluntary agreements in the "next few weeks" as memorandums of understanding with the individual automakers.


https://www.autoblog.com/2020/06/27...court/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000016&guccounter=1
 
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#2 ·
Eh.

He's going to do everything he can to kill not only the country, but the entire planet.

This is right in line with that philosophy.
 
#11 ·
I’m all for 1 standard, but lets use the more stringent one. It’s the very least we can do for the environment.

I live in a CARB state, it is not a big deal.
 
#15 ·
Yup. Run Euro 6 on everything. Easy peasy.

California only has a high GDP because its overpopulated, not because it has a crazy high per capita GDP (especially once you count the "undocumented")
California is high in the nation for per capita GDP. Throw undocumented workers in there if you will, but in the US 50-75% of undocumented immigrants have ITIN's and pay taxes, thus we have data on what they're paid. Does your state not have a foundation of undocumented workers? I'm sure that it does.

For a mix of tech and Ag, this state does well. To assert anything else is being willfully ignorant. :thumbup:

its growth has lagged behind US average
No it hasn't.

refugees and businesses are abandoning the state as cities are littered with homeless and open drug use, and they wield a toxic influence on neighboring good states and so its appropriate to implement a containment strategy just as we did with the USSR. I don't believe in redistribution of wealth, so PR's that are already citizens and getting benefits anyway becoming a state simply means they would contribute to the pool and have proper representation! :thumbup:
Wow. This is a lot of unpack. Sure, California has a homeless problem. But you feel like the US needs a containment strategy for one of our states, similar to what we had to a nuclear adversary? :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Man. If selling BS was king, you'd improve your states GDP by double digits, assuming people actually bought what you're selling.

I do approve of Puerto Rico becoming recognized as a state by the way, and our nation needs to treat them better. If Mississippi can vote to change their flag, so can our nation. :beer::thumbup:

In any case, if you want your car to be more expensive to own and operate with reduced performance, you CAN still do that. No one is telling you that you can't buy a Honda Clarity, they are just telling you that you can't force me to buy one too through regulations or punitive financial attacks.
Stop clutching your pearls. That's never what CARB has been about. This is just pure nonsense.

Besides, the narrative is nonsense because pollution has declined under the Trump compared to Obama administration, not increased. And no, harmless odorless carbon-dioxide is not pollution, evidenced by the fact that unlike actual pollution I could inhale a balloon of it just be lightheaded for a second with no toxic effect and biomass has never been higher in the world's history than when CO2 levels were approximately five times higher than they are today around 250 million years ago when bigass dinosaurs were happily stomping about before a meteor wrecked the planet and screwed up the atmosphere causing an ice age which BTW we're still in the Quaternary ice age.

Any true automotive enthusiast should be very happy about this, as it means less expensive higher performance vehicles will be available, all else equal.
Pollution has not decreased under Trump. I'll save you the quick Googling. Fine particulate matter is up 5%.

Carbon dioxide isn't an issue because you can breathe into a balloon a few times? Is the earth not a sphere because you can spray water on a basket ball and it all drops off the bottom, and our oceans don't drain off the bottom by Antartica? That's some lovely pseudo science you just mumbled out.

Like I said above, adhering to one standard is better for OEM's. Agree with you there, even though it doesn't quite equate to cheaper faster cars like you contest it will.
 
#13 ·
California only has a high GDP because its overpopulated, not because it has a crazy high per capita GDP (especially once you count the "undocumented"), its growth has lagged behind US average, refugees and businesses are abandoning the state as cities are littered with homeless and open drug use, and they wield a toxic influence on neighboring good states and so its appropriate to implement a containment strategy just as we did with the USSR. I don't believe in redistribution of wealth, so PR's that are already citizens and getting benefits anyway becoming a state simply means they would contribute to the pool and have proper representation! :thumbup:

In any case, if you want your car to be more expensive to own and operate with reduced performance, you CAN still do that. No one is telling you that you can't buy a Honda Clarity, they are just telling you that you can't force me to buy one too through regulations or punitive financial attacks.

Besides, the narrative is nonsense because pollution has declined under the Trump compared to Obama administration, not increased. And no, harmless odorless carbon-dioxide is not pollution, evidenced by the fact that unlike actual pollution I could inhale a balloon of it just be lightheaded for a second with no toxic effect and biomass has never been higher in the world's history than when CO2 levels were approximately five times higher than they are today around 250 million years ago when bigass dinosaurs were happily stomping about before a meteor wrecked the planet and screwed up the atmosphere causing an ice age which BTW we're still in the Quaternary ice age.

Any true automotive enthusiast should be very happy about this, as it means less expensive higher performance vehicles will be available, all else equal.
 
#16 ·
California only has a high GDP because its overpopulated, not because it has a crazy high per capita GDP (especially once you count the "undocumented"), its growth has lagged behind US average, refugees and businesses are abandoning the state as cities are littered with homeless and open drug use, and they wield a toxic influence on neighboring good states and so its appropriate to implement a containment strategy just as we did with the USSR.
To be fair, California is 11th most densely populated of the 50 states, right behind Ohio.
 
#19 ·
Not to mention 55% of California's GDP is concentrated in LA and SF, generated from the top 10% earners in the entertainment and tech industry.

They had to mention "children of color" breathing in pollution during the recent zero emissions truck by 2045 mandate, LOL.
 
#26 · (Edited)
Hahahahahahahahahaa

What. A. Joke.

You're going to blame starving polar bears, pollution, and air quality on Trump. You're delusional, out of touch and shouldn't have engagement with other adults.

The majority of all vehicles in the entire Untied States are impractical , not alone for your daily affairs: Stop talking like you give a chit, you don't

What's your 50, 60, 70 mpg mode of transportation to "just shoot down to Home Depot, or Fry's, or the bank?" Mines 80mpg. Stop talking like you care

90% of the population is fat (and or blatantly out of shape) while you shove 4,000+ calories down your eso-pha-gus precipice while you eat for sport. While food, has one of the largest carbon footprints possible. Stop eating with your mouth full, it's full, no need to shove more in Lol Vortex doesn't like the word eso-pha-gus

While the majority of the entire population is a criminal. Never been to your local municipal hazardous waste disposable centers? That's because you're a criminal. It's illegal to throw away a large spectrums of goods from certain types of light bulbs, batteries and other house hold products. And you're how old??...and never been??? Gee you don't say color me shocked!!!!!

Wait, you're never accumulated your 'e-waste' for the city bi-annual pickup? NEVER???????????? Mewh


This society will not only go down for just their TDS, yet for the most charlatan in history while complaining about everything.

- "I care! Orange man bad!!!!!!"
- No, acutely you're opinion doesn't add up to support anything, it acutely shows the opposite. Your individual carbon footprint is terrible, now keep your head down & go get back in your 3800lb V6 rwd vehicle and run errands all day for the next 30+ years.
 
#27 ·
Hahahahahahahahahaa

What. A. Joke.

You're going to blame starving polar bears, pollution, and air quality on Trump. You're delusional, out of touch and shouldn't have engagement with other adults.

The majority of all vehicles in the entire Untied States are impractical , not alone for your daily affairs: Stop talking like you give a chit, you don't

What's your 50, 60, 70 mpg mode of transportation to "just shoot down to Home Depot, or Fry's, or the bank?" Mines 80mpg. Stop talking like you care

90% of the population is fat (and or blatantly out of shape) while you shove 4,000+ calories down your eso-pha-gus precipice while you eat for sport. While food, has one of the largest carbon footprints possible. Stop eating with your mouth full, it's full, no need to shove more in Lol Vortex doesn't like the word eso-pha-gus

While the majority of the entire population is a criminal. Never been to your local municipal hazardous waste disposable centers? That's because you're a criminal. It's illegal to throw away a large spectrums of goods from certain types of light bulbs, batteries and other house hold products. And you're how old??...and never been??? Gee you don't say color me shocked!!!!!

Wait, you're never accumulated your 'e-waste' for the city bi-annual pickup? NEVER???????????? Mewh


This society will not only go down for just their TDS, yet for the most charlatan in history while complaining about everything.

- "I care! Orange man bad!!!!!!"
- No, acutely you're opinion doesn't add up to support anything, it acutely shows the opposite. Your individual carbon footprint is terrible, now keep your head down & go get back in your 3800lb V6 rwd vehicle and run errands all day for the next 30+ years.
My DD weighs 4,000lbs, and has 490hp. If you're going to exaggerate lets at least get some points slightly correct. :laugh::laugh:

FWIW, I've felt this way since I was a kid, so Orange Man Bad isn't the whole picture. He's just the current pompous ass, but there will be more. They exists on both sides of the aisle.

As far as everything else, man I've lived in AZ, so I could go on a idiotic rant based upon a caricature of things I saw in the desert and try to weave them into your posts, but it would just be a bunch of made up insults, and none would land, because that's exactly what happened here. :laugh::laugh::beer::beer:
 
#40 ·
Congratulations! You, did exactly as expected 😘😘😘.

All words no substance, not even a $1k bet? A thousand dollars not even, just more words?

What's a matter, never thought someone could back it up? Wasn't expecting that were you? Never thought in a million years to be called out?

"The average American consumes more than 3,600 calories daily"

Whomp whomp, wasn't aware facts were insults.

"The production of food accounts for 73% of emissions including transportation"

Guess that's a rant

"71.6% of all American adults age 20 and above were overweight."

Insulting!

"Only 12.5 percent of e-waste is recycled."

Idoitoc!

"Pickup trucks outsold passenger cars in the US for the first time ever last month as buyers flock toward bigger vehicles"

Probably to fit their obesity. There, you happy? Honestly, I don't even know why you're talking. No seriously, why are you even talking? Lonely? Need to get post count up? No really...you'd of faired much better just skipping my post.

Societies participation in caring about the Earth is worse then my grammar.
 
#41 ·
Congratulations! You, did exactly as expected 😘😘😘.

All words no substance, not even a $1k bet? A thousand dollars not even, just more words?

What's a matter, never thought someone could back it up? Wasn't expecting that were you? Never thought in a million years to be called out?

"The average American consumes more than 3,600 calories daily"

Whomp whomp, wasn't aware facts were insults.

"The production of food accounts for 73% of emissions including transportation"

Guess that's a rant

"71.6% of all American adults age 20 and above were overweight."

Insulting!

"Only 12.5 percent of e-waste is recycled."

Idoitoc!

"Pickup trucks outsold passenger cars in the US for the first time ever last month as buyers flock toward bigger vehicles"

Probably to fit their obesity. There, you happy? Honestly, I don't even know why you're talking. No seriously, why are you even talking? Lonely? Need to get post count up? No really...you'd of faired much better just skipping my post.

Societies participation in caring about the Earth is worse then my grammar.
I'd ask the same of you. I'm bored at night, and your posts are making me laugh. :thumbup::thumbup:

I told you I eat like a bird. I mean I eat well, and enjoy rich food, but I don't just crush 4,000 calories of food a day. How does that apply to me? I don't own a pick up truck so I don't know what you're getting at. :laugh::laugh:
 
#44 ·
Well this thread got weird overnight.

 
#57 ·
I love how this topic keeps bringing out the crazy posters. The last one was blackholed due to the racist trump supporters and it seems like this one is well on its way.
 
#60 ·
As a California lefty, I want the states to win. But I'm not that concerned. First, the two standards are quite similar.

But second, we are talking about regulating the waning days of the internal combustion engine. Electric cars will be cheaper than internal combustion cars, and people will vote with their pocketbooks.

Not only will electric cars not emit gases, but they also won't leak oil all over. California has one of the oldest fleets in the country, and leaking fluids is a factor in our pollution.

Telsa has already put out the idea that 500,000 cars with 75 KWh batteries is already grid-scale storage, which will bring down the cost of providing electricity. California has surplus energy, even though shutting down all nuclear plants. We didn't have any coal plants. Next to shut down? Either hydro or natural gas.

It's hard to make an internal combustion car that can compete with electric. Look at companies focused on performance, and all of them are looking hard at electricity. This boat is about to sail. Combustion is for Antique-lovers. It will never go away completely. You will trailer your combustion car behind your electric vehicle, or store it at the track.

So the future is pretty much invariant, no matter who wins this fight.
 
#88 ·
No manufacturer is going to sell us a cheaper car just because they get some emissions concessions. It has never works that way. No matter what rules they have to follow, the price of a Camry will continue to go up and only up $XXX per year regardless. If they can save a few pennies on making one a bit less emissions strict then they pocket the difference, or they add on a CARB fee going the other way.

Every manufacturer has the ability to just make 1 car for the US... they just have to go to the most stringent rules. No one is forcing them to make a more-pollute-y car for the non-CARB states, are they? (genuine question, with this Administration, it wouldn't surprise me).
 
#92 · (Edited)
No manufacturer is going to sell us a cheaper car just because they get some emissions concessions.
The most likely result is that you simply won't get as many options in California, and the options you do get will be in line with European pricing if you have the same type of legislatures that like European laws.

Cadillac may only offer the CTS but not the CTS-V, you may get the Challenger V6 but no Hellcat or Scat Pack, probably the smaller engine F-150 but no Raptors or anything, Velosters but no N model, etc.

And for things like a Mustang, look to Germany for your future, where a Mustang four-banger starts at $43K instead of the $26K in the US and a Mustang GT starts at $50K rather than $32K in the States, similar to the housing situation where $335K buys you this <1K sqft mobile home in California rather than this 3.7K sqft much nicer house and property in Texas.

Laws have market consequences, that's all I'm saying. If you want EU regulations, first take a really close look at the EU and see what you're giving up.
Oh, now that's a fun one. I'll admit, at least it's a unique argument. Explain how the EV tax credits are redistributing wealth from the average American to rich older white guys.
I already did, click the hyperlink that shows that Tesla owners are almost entirely old upper class white males (think it showed 87%), but the taxes to subsidize Teslas are paid by everyone. That's a redistribution of wealth from everyone equally to predominantly one "white male patriarchy" demographic that usually the left demonizes. I just thought that was especially ironic, since people and the article were harping on how if you don't support electric cars then you're racist.
 
#95 ·
What is strange about this whole issue is that at the core of conservative/republican beliefs is state rights; that the states have primacy to make their own decisions and determinations free from federal interference.

In this case you have a state that is choosing it's own emissions standards. No one has to make cars for them - but in classic republican/capitalist realities - California's big car market cannot be ignored. So CA is just flexing it's muscle in a classically Republican state-rights way - and yet the Republican administration is fighting that decision. Let CA do what it wants. Let the market decide what pain threshold is tolerable. If CA wants to make it where the only thing that passes CARB are electric mopeds - let them, the citizens there will either embrace that decisions as reflective of their wishes, or vote-in a state government that accurately reflects their wishes. Okay that last sentence is wishful thinking but still, let CA do what it wants.

FYI I am conservative (but socially liberal).
 
#97 ·
What is strange about this whole issue is that at the core of conservative/republican beliefs is state rights; that the states have primacy to make their own decisions and determinations free from federal interference.
You just need to hang out with more of us. I've talked to people that think that the right-wing are so anti big government that they are anarchists, while they support actual anarchist rioters, lol! There is nuance, and you won't hear Republicans complaining that the national army is funded by federal taxes because we understand there are certain responsibilities that benefit from being centralized.

I also find it interesting that you don't think its strange about the whole issue is that the core of liberal/democrat belief is federal rights; that the federal government should have primacy over things like the environment that affects everyone and yet here they side with California over the majority and federal authority.
 
#138 ·
It's always amazing to me how the stereotypes keep being proven by the stoopids. Calm refutation with solid facts is met with red faced screaming about nonsense... Over, and over, again. At this point I would be happy for the Blue states to leave and let the Reds be happy wallowing in their own s**t.
 
#179 ·
I support the GND, and wish it went farther to further push construction practices and building codes into the 21st century.

Think just for a second, that things aren’t actually getting more expensive.. but that for most if not all of our lives, they were artificially cheap.. subsidized by pushing the true expenses off to poor developing nations, post-industrial environmental cleanup, and quite literally passing the buck to our future generations?

Like it or not, we can’t afford to ignore those costs anymore, and push them indefinitely down the road.
 
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