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    1. #76
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      Explain to the class why the average European's vehicle ownership costs are so much higher...
      https://inrix.com/press-releases/cod-us/

      hmmm?

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    3. #77
      How do I resize a picture? Cabin Pics's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      Cmon, you're a smart guy.
      I don't think you're in a position to label things as "smart".

      Well, at least to be taken seriously.
      Instagram - efrie004

      Quote Originally Posted by Sold Over Sticker View Post
      You take that fake rich sled back to the toothless masses and rub their stupid meth faces in your success. Do it for me.

    4. #78
      Quote Originally Posted by Nourdmrolnmt View Post
      And somehow, he states "poor people can't afford the expenses that new regulations will add" while then stating "let's just bring LATAM up to NA standards"...

      I'm assuming he also thinks...
      Quotations imply that's what I said verbatim, which is a lie, and it doesn't even represent the gist of what I said. I advocated setting a slower/lower pace for emissions standards that work for all Americans, North and South, which is ironic since the same people saying that is ridiculous are arguing that California should have more authority to set a national standard than the actual national government and majority of states. Whew, lots of assumptions there. Do you need more straw? You're building that guy pretty big! Let me know if you tire yourself out fighting it.

    5. #79
      Member Shmi's Avatar
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      3 new pages since i left work yesterday? Let's see what's going on in he-




      *reloads ignore list gun*
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    6. #80
      How do I resize a picture? Cabin Pics's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      I advocate setting a slower/lower pace for emissions standards that work for slow Americans.
      Finally, you tell the truth.
      Instagram - efrie004

      Quote Originally Posted by Sold Over Sticker View Post
      You take that fake rich sled back to the toothless masses and rub their stupid meth faces in your success. Do it for me.

    7. #81
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      Quotations imply that's what I said verbatim, which is a lie, and it doesn't even represent the gist of what I said. I advocated setting a slower/lower pace for emissions standards that work for all Americans, North and South, which is ironic since the same people saying that is ridiculous are arguing that California should have more authority to set a national standard than the actual national government and majority of states. Whew, lots of assumptions there. Do you need more straw? You're building that guy pretty big! Let me know if you tire yourself out fighting it.
      So do you agree with the 10th amendment or not?

      Why don't car manufacturers just stop selling cars in CARB states?

    8. #82
      I need new ones NeverEnoughCars's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Nourdmrolnmt View Post

      Why don't car manufacturers just stop selling cars in CARB states?
      Because they do not want to own the libs hard enough!
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      Pedantry: winning arguments through exasperation since 1651. An Old World Tradition!
      "Now i am become death the destroyer of worlds."-bhagavad gita
      “Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.” -T.S. Eliot

    9. #83
      Quote Originally Posted by Nourdmrolnmt View Post
      So do you agree with the 10th amendment or not?
      Those type of emissions regulations, due to its inability to be restricted to state borders, is a national issue not state one. EPA has never allowed say Georgia to pour industrial waste into the Southern part of the Chattahoochee river and then say its Florida's problem now.
      Quote Originally Posted by Nourdmrolnmt View Post
      Why don't car manufacturers just stop selling cars in CARB states?
      For the same reason they don't stop selling cars in all the other states... their job is to sell as many cars to as many people as they can. Cmon...

    10. #84
      How do I resize a picture? Cabin Pics's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      Chattahoochee
      Instagram - efrie004

      Quote Originally Posted by Sold Over Sticker View Post
      You take that fake rich sled back to the toothless masses and rub their stupid meth faces in your success. Do it for me.

    11. #85
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      Air pollution, due to its inability to be restricted to state borders, is a national issue not state one. EPA has never allowed say Georgia to pour industrial waste into the Southern part of the Chattahoochee river and then say its Florida's problem now.

      For the same reason they don't stop selling cars in all the other states... their job is to sell as many cars to as many people as they can. Cmon...
      No, their job is to make share holders money...

      If what you said is true, that by not meeting CARB the cost of production (and all items that come before that) goes down, then car manufacturers would be able to sell less cars at higher profit, thus increasing profitability and share price and share holders money.

      So because something impacts more than just their state, that specific item can no longer be managed by state regulations?

      nvm, i'm done discussing this. You're just going to keep going further and further into "**** states rights, it's interstate based thus it's federal"

    12. #86
      Quote Originally Posted by Nourdmrolnmt View Post
      No, their job is to make share holders money...
      Which they do by:
      A) Selling cars
      B) Renting apartments
      C) Mowing lawns
      D) Mercenary contracts

      Would you like to use your lifeline?
      Quote Originally Posted by Nourdmrolnmt View Post
      If what you said is true, that by not meeting CARB the cost of production (and all items that come before that) goes down, then car manufacturers would be able to sell less cars at higher profit, thus increasing profitability and share price and share holders money.
      The vehicles could be sold at a lower price increasing profits or at a higher profit margin, that is true. But even if profits are lower in California because of higher prices reducing sales, those profits still exist, and they don't have to choose one or the other and would still naturally want to sell in both. With today's global platforms, it may not even be the end of the world, as you can buy a Silverado with 5 different engine options, so they could simply restrict California to the crappiest powertrain but offer the higher performance engines in the normal states.

    13. #87
      I need new ones NeverEnoughCars's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      Which they do by:
      A) Selling cars
      B) Renting apartments
      C) Mowing lawns
      D) Mercenary contracts

      Would you like to use your lifeline?

      The vehicles could be sold at a lower price increasing profits or at a higher profit margin, that is true. But even if profits are lower in California because of higher prices reducing sales, those profits still exist, and they don't have to choose one or the other and would still naturally want to sell in both. With today's global platforms, it may not even be the end of the world, as you can buy a Silverado with 5 different engine options, so they could simply restrict California to the crappiest powertrain but offer the higher performance engines in the normal states.
      Why do you hate humanity?
      Or do you only care about you, screw the future generations...
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      Pedantry: winning arguments through exasperation since 1651. An Old World Tradition!
      "Now i am become death the destroyer of worlds."-bhagavad gita
      “Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.” -T.S. Eliot

    14. #88
      Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      No manufacturer is going to sell us a cheaper car just because they get some emissions concessions. It has never works that way. No matter what rules they have to follow, the price of a Camry will continue to go up and only up $XXX per year regardless. If they can save a few pennies on making one a bit less emissions strict then they pocket the difference, or they add on a CARB fee going the other way.

      Every manufacturer has the ability to just make 1 car for the US... they just have to go to the most stringent rules. No one is forcing them to make a more-pollute-y car for the non-CARB states, are they? (genuine question, with this Administration, it wouldn't surprise me).

    15. #89
      Senior Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      Other people have already responded well enough that I don't feel I need to dwell too much, but,

      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      2) C'mon, its so obvious what is happening here. Automakers can exceed standards by any margin they wish, and can drastically outperform even the current California standards if they think that's what the public wants. They know full well that its not and that its a handicap.
      OK, so the challenge isn't making cars that meet the current standards, the Trump 2026 standards, the Obama 2026 standards, nor the California standards. The challenge is meeting those standards with vehicles that the buying public will want to buy. We get it.

      However, manufacturers like VW that are going to produce underwhelming underpowered vehicles in the EU anyway could have a leg up on domestic manufacturers that rely more heavily on sales of larger vehicles with more powerful engines, just as that gave them a foothold in the 70s and 80s when Democrat's rapid regulations destroyed the domestic vehicle manufacturer's hegemony in the US and allowed them to sell a lot of small underpowered bugs that weren't as heavily harmed as big Rivieras and Firebirds.
      Frankly, the manufacturers we're talking about are truly global entities. Even the American companies with less overseas footprint, say Tesla or Ford (yes, relative to GM and FCA), aren't combatting the more stringent emissions standards. The ones taking the administration's side in this (which has a political reason in and of itself) vary from those who could financially struggle to meet them without decimating their sales through model changes or price hikes (say, GM) to those who could hybridize their entire lineup and meet them tomorrow (Toyota). It's not a statement of capability to meet the standards. All of them have already done the prep work for years to roll out things like turbo 4s, 48v mild hybrids with auto stop/start, electrified drivetrains, etc.. There's still some with competitive advantage over each other due to how they've positioned themselves, but bringing up a Riviera vs. a Bug (which, actually, also died in the US in the 70s to make way for the Golf, Civic, and Corolla) isn't very relevant to what we're on the precipice of right now. Neither size nor performance need to be killed to improve emissions.

      I won't even get into how this is somehow the fault of Democratic regulations when they controlled the executive for only 4 years of the 20 year span you bring up.

      You also say that we aren't operating in a vacuum, but don't forget that central and South America, that are part of the Americas, will not be adopting such an aggressive pace. Meixco for example for light passenger vehicles is still using as low as US tier 1 or euro 3 back from 94 and 00 respectively. The federal government setting a standard by which all Americans can abide, North and South Americans, would make for a single unified market and reduce costs and increase vehicle availability not just because its one standard but lower less expensive standards that offer higher performance at lower costs, all else equal.
      Are you suggesting the current administration, which threatened ripping up NAFTA and started to with arbitrary tariffs, only to end up ratifying a substantially similar update to NAFTA, is setting the groundwork for a single market standard and emissions standard? Yes, there's merit to doing so, but I think Canada and Mexico would like to be consulted on that too. Somehow I don't think that's what the only country to try and back out of the Paris Agreement on GHG emissions has in mind.

    16. #90
      Senior Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      Those type of emissions regulations, due to its inability to be restricted to state borders, is a national issue not state one. EPA has never allowed say Georgia to pour industrial waste into the Southern part of the Chattahoochee river and then say its Florida's problem now.
      "Those types of emissions," but I'm guessing you're carving out a reason why "this type of emission" is different? Atmospheric GHG concentration also crosses state borders.

      For the same reason they don't stop selling cars in all the other states... their job is to sell as many cars to as many people as they can. Cmon...
      Wow. They must be really desperate if they're having to sell into those "failed economies." They're totally "not producers" and I hear their economic growth rates are down...

    17. #91
      Member westsideseal's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      If we're going to harp on racism, perhaps point out that we're essentially redistributing wealth from the average American to predominantly rich older white guys with these subsidies.
      Oh, now that's a fun one. I'll admit, at least it's a unique argument. Explain how the EV tax credits are redistributing wealth from the average American to rich older white guys. Does that concern also extend to the myriad other tax incentives that higher income people are able to benefit most from?

    18. #92
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      No manufacturer is going to sell us a cheaper car just because they get some emissions concessions.
      The most likely result is that you simply won't get as many options in California, and the options you do get will be in line with European pricing if you have the same type of legislatures that like European laws.

      Cadillac may only offer the CTS but not the CTS-V, you may get the Challenger V6 but no Hellcat or Scat Pack, probably the smaller engine F-150 but no Raptors or anything, Velosters but no N model, etc.

      And for things like a Mustang, look to Germany for your future, where a Mustang four-banger starts at $43K instead of the $26K in the US and a Mustang GT starts at $50K rather than $32K in the States, similar to the housing situation where $335K buys you this <1K sqft mobile home in California rather than this 3.7K sqft much nicer house and property in Texas.

      Laws have market consequences, that's all I'm saying. If you want EU regulations, first take a really close look at the EU and see what you're giving up.
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      Oh, now that's a fun one. I'll admit, at least it's a unique argument. Explain how the EV tax credits are redistributing wealth from the average American to rich older white guys.
      I already did, click the hyperlink that shows that Tesla owners are almost entirely old upper class white males (think it showed 87%), but the taxes to subsidize Teslas are paid by everyone. That's a redistribution of wealth from everyone equally to predominantly one "white male patriarchy" demographic that usually the left demonizes. I just thought that was especially ironic, since people and the article were harping on how if you don't support electric cars then you're racist.
      Last edited by Ducman69; 06-30-2020 at 02:40 PM.

    19. #93
      Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      Cmon, you're a smart guy.

      1) You're operating on the premise that California and their legislatures ability to influence a minority of blue states should be the national standard, rather than what the majority states and the actual elected national authority have outlined. If situations were reversed and Obama set standards and Texas set lower standards that they wanted to force all the states to adopt, I see no chance in hell you'd support that.

      2) C'mon, its so obvious what is happening here. Automakers can exceed standards by any margin they wish, and can drastically outperform even the current California standards if they think that's what the public wants. They know full well that its not and that its a handicap. However, manufacturers like VW that are going to produce underwhelming underpowered vehicles in the EU anyway could have a leg up on domestic manufacturers that rely more heavily on sales of larger vehicles with more powerful engines, just as that gave them a foothold in the 70s and 80s when Democrat's rapid regulations destroyed the domestic vehicle manufacturer's hegemony in the US and allowed them to sell a lot of small underpowered bugs that weren't as heavily harmed as big Rivieras and Firebirds.

      You also say that we aren't operating in a vacuum, but don't forget that central and South America, that are part of the Americas, will not be adopting such an aggressive pace. Meixco for example for light passenger vehicles is still using as low as US tier 1 or euro 3 back from 94 and 00 respectively. The federal government setting a standard by which all Americans can abide, North and South Americans, would make for a single unified market and reduce costs and increase vehicle availability not just because its one standard but lower less expensive standards that offer higher performance at lower costs, all else equal.

      “When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.” - George RR Martin Besides, the only ones making personal attacks, name calling, and trying to shut down discussion rather than engaging with the topic of government emissions regulations aren't the righties in this thread.
      Since I'm not an expert on these various things like you I'll speak only of your incorrect assumptions about which I'm well educated.

      The emissions regulations on Bugs were decimating. It raised temperatures to the point that the design was no longer capable of shedding that much heat. Many things were tried to help, but it would have taken a complete redesign to get it to survive. Since the public no longer wanted a tiny car designed in the 1930s that wasn't really a viable option. How to get past that point... I know! Let's simply start using a completely different design philosophy that would transform the company completely! No biggie! It isn't such a big change as what the Americans and their big cars will have to go through.

      Decimating is the correct word.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    20. #94
      Member westsideseal's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post

      I already did, click the hyperlink that shows that Tesla owners are almost entirely old upper class white males (think it showed 87%), but the taxes to subsidize Teslas are paid by everyone. That's a redistribution of wealth from everyone equally to predominantly one "white male patriarchy" demographic that usually the left demonizes. I just thought that was especially ironic, since people and the article were harping on how if you don't support electric cars then you're racist.
      You didn't. You shared that the main Tesla buyer is in that demographic. It's disingenuous to claim that it's redistribution from lower taxpayers unless you can demonstrate that lower income taxpayers are paying more in taxes than they otherwise would to cover the subsidies. How much more is the average American paying in taxes to cover these subsidies? It would be like saying any of the tax breaks homeowners or businesses get are upward redistribution. It's meant to sew resentment in "average Americans" towards those buying EVs without any logical basis.

    21. #95
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      What is strange about this whole issue is that at the core of conservative/republican beliefs is state rights; that the states have primacy to make their own decisions and determinations free from federal interference.

      In this case you have a state that is choosing it's own emissions standards. No one has to make cars for them - but in classic republican/capitalist realities - California's big car market cannot be ignored. So CA is just flexing it's muscle in a classically Republican state-rights way - and yet the Republican administration is fighting that decision. Let CA do what it wants. Let the market decide what pain threshold is tolerable. If CA wants to make it where the only thing that passes CARB are electric mopeds - let them, the citizens there will either embrace that decisions as reflective of their wishes, or vote-in a state government that accurately reflects their wishes. Okay that last sentence is wishful thinking but still, let CA do what it wants.

      FYI I am conservative (but socially liberal).

    22. #96
      Member The A1 and A2 German's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by NeverEnoughCars View Post
      I love how this topic keeps bringing out the crazy posters. The last one was blackholed due to the racist trump supporters and it seems like this one is well on its way.
      Fish on! Fish on! Hope you set your drag properly!

      Says the racist leftists, you know, who nominated a:

      Rich, white, male for representation

      And left the:

      Not so rich, minority, and many females, in the dust no f's given.

      No outrage for all the leftists assaulting, killing and doing $400,000,000+ in damages this month? You know, pounding the piss outta whites while screaming your cause?

      Show me screen shots of your fake outrage amongst the Obama, Clinton & Biden trifecta of Hillary's life long mentor Robert Byrd. A senior KKK, official recruiter for the Klan. Will making homophobic remarks, and pushing to not allow enlistment into the armed forces.

      Shall we keep going? Or call a draw?

      The violence, property damage, lack of composer, anarchy, death, assaults, doxing, screaming, rioting, looting, injury, attempted vehicular man slaughter....

      Try this for size, show me the counter to the leftist mob who destroyed my work: "Millions in damage at Scottsdale Fashion Square Mall and area after Saturday night protests turn violent."

      That's a leftist mob, get it? Show me 500+ Trump supporters going full blown anarchy? Death, injury, assault, ruined businesses.

      Hello? Hellllllooooooo? Mcfly?

      Oh, that's just Scottsdale, shall we add the other 20 cities which would make a ratio of left vs right on anarchy to:

      .05:10 (32 power)

      ------------------------------------------------


      Politics aside, and a serious question: If people claim to care so much about the environment, why isn't anyone doing anything on an individual scale? Seems like a lot of talk with no substance. I'm surprised the streets are filled with ~40mpg ruckus's, mopeds, etc...hell...they'd end up paying for themselves.
      Last edited by The A1 and A2 German; 06-30-2020 at 03:03 PM.
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    23. #97
      Quote Originally Posted by Lawrider View Post
      What is strange about this whole issue is that at the core of conservative/republican beliefs is state rights; that the states have primacy to make their own decisions and determinations free from federal interference.
      You just need to hang out with more of us. I've talked to people that think that the right-wing are so anti big government that they are anarchists, while they support actual anarchist rioters, lol! There is nuance, and you won't hear Republicans complaining that the national army is funded by federal taxes because we understand there are certain responsibilities that benefit from being centralized.

      I also find it interesting that you don't think its strange about the whole issue is that the core of liberal/democrat belief is federal rights; that the federal government should have primacy over things like the environment that affects everyone and yet here they side with California over the majority and federal authority.

    24. #98
      How do I resize a picture? Cabin Pics's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by The A1 and A2 German View Post
      Show me 500+ Trump supporters going full blown anarchy? Death, injury, assault, ruined businesses.

      Hello? Hellllllooooooo? Mcfly?
      Instagram - efrie004

      Quote Originally Posted by Sold Over Sticker View Post
      You take that fake rich sled back to the toothless masses and rub their stupid meth faces in your success. Do it for me.

    25. #99
      Member westsideseal's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      You just need to hang out with more of us. I've talked to people that think that the right-wing are so anti big government that they are anarchists, while they support actual anarchist rioters, lol! There is nuance, and you won't hear Republicans complaining that the national army is funded by federal taxes because we understand there are certain responsibilities that benefit from being centralized.

      I also find it interesting that you don't think its strange about the whole issue is that the core of liberal/democrat belief is federal rights; that the federal government should have primacy over things like the environment that affects everyone and yet here they side with California over the majority and federal authority.
      I don't think either side should have a problem with a federally-mandated minimum standard for things like this, with states able to enact more strict standards if they'd like. If those standards are too strict for a given automaker, they can simply not make cars for that state. Shouldn't really be a partisan issue, but seems like any action CA takes tends to illicit a pretty strong reaction to our "freedom-loving" countrymen.

    26. #100
      Turtles walk slowly, but get angry fast! Smooremin's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Cabin Pics View Post
      Took the picture right out of my post.


      "theres a bunch of good people on both sides"
      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      Asking OT for relationship advice makes about as much sense as asking TCL what car to buy.
      Quote Originally Posted by ChillOutPossum View Post
      About 5 oclock I realized I needed to go to Costco for some white people stuff.

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