Do dealers offer different levels of PPI's?
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    1. #1
      Member 4th Branch's Avatar
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      Do dealers offer different levels of PPI's?

      A family member recently purchased a 2018 non-CPO Porsche from a factory dealer and was told vehicle was inspected and passed with flying colors. Upon delivery, it was discovered brake pads have little life left and rear shocks are leaking. Shocks are covered under warranty but it's still a hassle to take it to the nearest Porsche dealer. Selling dealers response on the pads is that the computer sensor did not pick it up so it's within an acceptable wear range.

      In order to avoid a similar scenario in the future, let's say I'm interested in a 2013 Audi across the country that is outside of it's factory warranty limits and I want the Audi dealer to perform a thorough PPI identical to what a newer CPO vehicle goes thru before being CPO certified. Is that a service that is offered by dealers across the board for an additional fee?

      Last edited by 4th Branch; 08-01-2020 at 03:58 PM.

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    3. #2
      Senior Member Lwize's Avatar
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      Yes.

      Cost (obviously) varies.
      TIL Motor oil doesn't come from motors.

    4. #3
      Member shftat6's Avatar
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      I have seen the same. Pointing out all of the obvious issues with a car to the salesman as I motioned to the 100 bazillion point inspection label the dealer pasted on the car.
      '16 F150 5.0 S/C, '18 Honda Goldwing

    5. #4
      Member freedomgli's Avatar
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      Dealers are probably the worst place to have a PPI done. Their business model and the quality of their technicians generally don’t lend themselves well to this kind of service. Ideally, you want an independent specialist who is known for their stellar reputation on that particular make and model of car, and who is known to provide a detailed PPI report that’s not just pencil whipped by a tech cutting corners. These kind of independent specialists are few and far in between.

      Unfortunately, you don’t always get what you pay for. Hoovie explains his recent Porsche PPI experience at the fancy Porsche dealership in his town.

      https://youtu.be/VZA49-53osY

    6. #5
      Member freedomgli's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by 4th Branch View Post
      Is that a service that is offered by dealers across the board for an additional fee?
      Generally speaking, no. I mean, they’ll still take your $350 or whatever ridiculous rate they charge. But you’ll most likely get a tech who does little more than connect a diagnostic tool to look for DTCs, puts the car on the lift for a cursory visual examination and then proceeds to draw a line straight through every checkbox on their “multipoint vehicle inspection form” while eating their sandwich for lunch.

    7. #6
      Quote Originally Posted by freedomgli View Post
      Dealers are probably the worst place to have a PPI done. Their business model and the quality of their technicians generally don’t lend themselves well to this kind of service. Ideally, you want an independent specialist who is known for their stellar reputation on that particular make and model of car, and who is known to provide a detailed PPI report that’s not just pencil whipped by a tech cutting corners. These kind of independent specialists are few and far in between.

      Unfortunately, you don’t always get what you pay for. Hoovie explains his recent Porsche PPI experience at the fancy Porsche dealership in his town.

      https://youtu.be/VZA49-53osY
      Quote Originally Posted by freedomgli View Post
      Generally speaking, no. I mean, they’ll still take your $350 or whatever ridiculous rate they charge. But you’ll most likely get a tech who does little more than connect a diagnostic tool to look for DTCs, puts the car on the lift for a cursory visual examination and then proceeds to draw a line straight through every checkbox on their “multipoint vehicle inspection form” while eating their sandwich for lunch.

      These are FACTS.

      A dealer tech is flat rate. Gets paid per job. Generally, they will only look for things on an inspection that will get them paid. The place I worked for, one knew there was about a grand or so of repairs that the used car manager would approve for repairs. So if the car needed 4 tires and front brake pads... well there you go that's it, or they would take the car back, and no $ for you. Just got paid for the inspection.

      SO many times I would submit a laundry list to them, with the response:

      SM- "OK what does the car REALLY need?"
      ME- "It's on the inspection"
      SM- ...tries again to explain the business model like its my first day...
      ME- "I provide the list and paperwork, YOU decide what you want to do with the car"


      I once got "in trouble" for refusing to sign or put my number on an obvious flood car (SOMEHOW had a clean Carfax) that a dealer was trying to CPO. They wanted it CPO'd instead of AS-IS because you can't really park 2 similar looking (and mileage) shiny used cars on the same lot with one of them full CPO and the other not without raising a few customer eyebrows .

      After wasting a couple hours going back and forth (again, no pay here) I finally convinced them to auction the damn thing. Yep. I had to CONVINCE them. This was only after they couldn't get any of the other techs to sign off on the car, and THAT was only because of how LOUDLY I was arguing with management about my personal liability of signing for such a vehicle out in the shop before I got pulled into the office to quiet me down.

      At the time I just couldn't believe they were morally OK with selling a car that honestly should have been crushed.

      After a while, they started only buying end-of-lease vehicles, EX rental cars, and other vehicles that had already gone through some sort of inspection and/or reconditioning, or had a "guarantee" that they weren't total crap boxes.

      Those cars were great as they usually don't need anything aside from performing ALL back maintenance (because there was NEVER any proof from previous owner) to qualify it for CPO. Even that didn't last long as they started only buying cars with fewer than 35K miles. Don't have to pay for the most expensive service due at 40K that way.

      I didn't get very many "Used Cars" for obvious reasons. I only got them when there was no other REAL work and they HAD to assign something. The used cars magically went to techs who could be accurately be described by freedomgli's post.

      As you can guess, dealers will only adjust their strategy if it makes financial sense. I am so glad I don't work at a dealer anymore.

      Pro Tip: NEVER rely on the people who profit from the sale to inspect anything. ALWAYS get an external inspection to remove any conflict of interest.

    8. #7
      Member 4th Branch's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by SLAB View Post
      Pro Tip: NEVER rely on the people who profit from the sale to inspect anything. ALWAYS get an external inspection to remove any conflict of interest.


      Another challenge is getting dealers to agree to off-site inspections unless it's within the same city/zip. As @AMfreedomgli commented, finding an indy that is profiecient in that particular brand/model is not easy to find, let alone within close proximity of said dealer. I'll start offering to place a $1000 hold/deposit on my CC to show good faith/motivation

    9. #8
      Quote Originally Posted by 4th Branch View Post


      Another challenge is getting dealers to agree to off-site inspections unless it's within the same city/zip. As @AMfreedomgli commented, finding an indy that is profiecient in that particular brand/model is not easy to find, let alone within close proximity of said dealer. I'll start offering to place a $1000 hold/deposit on my CC to show good faith/motivation
      also do not buy a CC that is older than 2014. by then all the DSG issues are worked out.

      Also look CLOSELY for oil leaks at the "valve cover" and front timing covers.

      If the valve cover (or cam cage) has GREEN sealant, it has been opened. If not done TO THE BOOK (never is) the engine is prone to eating itself.

    10. #9
      Member wuman82's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by SLAB View Post
      also do not buy a CC that is older than 2014. by then all the DSG issues are worked out.

      Also look CLOSELY for oil leaks at the "valve cover" and front timing covers.

      If the valve cover (or cam cage) has GREEN sealant, it has been opened. If not done TO THE BOOK (never is) the engine is prone to eating itself.
      I think he meant Credit Card, and not a VW CC.

    11. #10
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      If you can get someone to look at it for you, even if it's just a fellow enthusiast, you'll be better off than trusting the dealer. When I bought my 2012 accord, I was in Houston, it was in San Antonio 4 hours away. I sent a friend the description from the ad, and the emails about condition from the salesman. He went and test drove, pointing out the differences. I got $1k off and split it with him.

    12. #11
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      Dealer acts like the Porsche brake pad sensors are a "no news is good news" situation, and that's reductive at best. These sensors aren't continuously checking and giving detailed feedback, it's either yes--the circuit is complete, or no--the circuit is broken. If the sensors get tripped, then outside of a wiring issue, yeah, the pads are almost certainly bad. But that's not to say that if the sensors aren't tripped, the pads are OK.

      FWIW, the pads in this picture did not trip the sensors but are definitely not what I would consider an "acceptable wear range." I knew they were broken when I heard abnormal squealing in the paddock at the end of a track day (I believed they cracked whilst cooling off to end the session) and so changed them. I know this particular situation will not apply to most, but there's lots of ways a brake can fail and the sensors are a nice additional precaution but definitely not a replacement for the brake system being inspected by a tech. Heck, last time I had my Cayenne in for some recall work they did a free inspection and let me the pads were just starting to get low.

    13. #12
      Quote Originally Posted by wuman82 View Post
      I think he meant Credit Card, and not a VW CC.
      Oh thank GOD!!!

    14. #13
      as others have mentioned find a good indy shop. If you need help finding one for a remote purchase people have asked for help on here before....so don't be shy.

    15. #14
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      Did your family member ask the dealer why this 3 year old piece wasn't CPO? Because there is a reason.
      Expose your cracks and love will fill them.

    16. #15
      Quote Originally Posted by MAC View Post
      Did your family member ask the dealer why this 3 year old piece wasn't CPO? Because there is a reason.
      I agree, this in itself is telling you something. Call and say I am looking at this indie shop to do a pre buy inspection. Their reaction good or bad will tell you what you need to know. A few years back had a similar experience with a passat wagon. I had done some research about what should have and needed to be done on the car. I was aware of the trouble issues. Dealer had this low mileage one owner wagon but it wasnt certified. My initial calls and dealings with the salesperson and service staff were great as long as I talked about money (purchasing). I found a respected indie shop and once I said i want that shop which was close to look it over, everything changed. Tone of people changed, lack of return of calls. It escapes me the part, but I was told specifically to see if "X" part had been replaced, which I learned about here in the passat forum. The passat folks were super helpful and pointed out that if this part was not addressed on this specific year, the engine was known to grenade. By memory, VW addressed the issue on the model year after. Once I mentioned the part to sales guy, the car was pulled off the website and salesman text not called and said car is no longer available. Long story short, the dealer I believe was aware they had a time bomb but it was clean and low mileage enough to move quickly on the lot. I was the guy that just asked too many questions. I 100% believe the car went to auction after my last call.

    17. #16
      Member 4th Branch's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MAC View Post
      Did your family member ask the dealer why this 3 year old piece wasn't CPO? Because there is a reason.
      Didn't ask specifically but maybe due to the mileage being higher for a '18? P cars that are CPO come with a higher price tag which might've resulted in the vehicle sitting on the lot longer? Less demand, smaller profit margin for a higher mileage CPO? I dunno, I'm not familiar with how the car biz works but common sense says volume is the name of the game right now in case demand/economy/consumer confidence declines. It's been up on a rack for over a week now getting a few modifications done and fluids changed, been inspected closely and so far nothing else has come up