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    1. #51
      Member barry2952's Avatar
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      Stainless steel brace, or no brace, I couldn't leave this like this. I was telling Gary that I write about my projects, partially for the entertainment of others, but mostly because it is a big part of my thought process. With no inner voice and no mind's eye I use the photos I take to help me understand the subtleties of what I need to do next. I use feedback to catch glaring mistakes, and I do take every suggestion into consideration, but I let the work take me where I need to go.

      This told me I didn't want my name associated with trying to save this due to being scared to death to bring a TIG welder anywhere all this styrofoam. I started thinking about the cars I've built or restored and got to thinking about aircraft construction. It's all about the bracing and proper fasteners.



      It had to go. I checked how far back I had to cut to get to square stock. I used the new Dremel saw to make some incredibly fast and straight cuts.



      There was nothing I could do about this. The bent rafter transferred some of the energy to the rectangular stock side railand turned it into a trapezoid. I didn't see it before, by the weld was broken, too. Glad I took it out.



      They used the same material for the rafter as the side rail. It's lightweight 1" x 3" aluminum with a 1/16" wall. What seems to be available is 1/8" wall. I've made a request of the manufacturer for an exact replacement. I can use the heavier stock, If I need to. I found the replacement ladder, too.

      I used my 100-tooth carbide blade to make a new section of the side rail out of a straight section salvaged from the bent rafter.



      I made two internal sleeve supports cut out of one piece of tubing precisely cutting them so that they would jamb each other in place as they were inserted into the trailer side rail. One didn't go in as far as the other, but there's a good 6" of overlapping sleeve on either side of the joint.







      I repaired the curved section in a similar fashion.



      Demolition is now complete. I believe commercial grade pop rivets through the stainless cap and two layers of aluminum will be a substantial splice without any welding.



      I duplicated the good rear curve spacer. The inner radius clamps down the inner closet ceiling curve and the outer curved material screws down to the larger radius.


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    3. #52
      Member barry2952's Avatar
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      Getting proper material out of the manufacturer has been like pulling teeth. However, their record-keeping has proven invaluable in getting matching paneling. It has a layer of vinyl that allows it to bend without cracking. It was $28 a sheet, so I got 2 because the transportation to Elkhart and back is $250.00 for me to send someone to get it. Not worthe the risk of having to need a second. The manufacturer usually ships direct to its dealers freight-allowed, but my order for aluminum trim that's 16-feet long and very hard to find 2.5" x 1" x .055 wall, is unavailable through normal supply channels. Apparently, they use so much of it it's milled to their specs.

      I did get $111.00 worth of high quality aluminum rivets in various lengths. Unlike big-range pull-type pop rivets these rivets are to be used within a very narrow range. Many of the joined brackets have interior and exterior bracing that I will have to gauge. I sent Gary after some clear white pine to use in reassembling the trailer and I schooled him on the grade I was looking for. He was astounded at what passes for lumber in the lower grades. I had him pick up some foam board so I can rebuild the smashed wall. It will be part of recreating the original construction method. The foam board gets bonded to the outer skin and to the inner paneling with contact cement.



      One of the things they wanted me to do was to critter-proof the underside of the trailer. They use a pretty sturdy extruded PVC underbelly skin, but they missed many spots a mouse could easily get into. The way their rib cages collapse they can get through any gap they can get their head through. The also build nests in the hollow exposed tubing of the part of the frame that carries the torque-flex suspension. Many a car has been destroyed by mice setting up their home in a boxed car frame. They constantly add to they nest because they urinate on it and that acid and moisture eats the metal from the inside. The grey water discharge pipe had been duct-taped, but that was just flaking off. Pretty useless stuff.



      I use strips of DynaMat I cut on a paper cutter into large bandaid-size pieces that easily bridge the gap, making to impossible for a mouse to chew through the metal and tar-based pad.



      Just after Gary left one day I guess I became dehydrated and stumbled and fell. My arm took the brunt of the blow and got pretty ugly before it got better. I was supposed to get a Botox shot to control the PD shake, but the doc said, "Nope!" I believe I've astounded Gary several times that I can go from shaking like a leaf to surgeon-steady the moment I touch any tool.



      The splice Lyndon made me is a perfect fit. It will unify the wall/roof connection. This will be held in place with rivets.



      Now you can see the gentle curve of the roof. I gouged out enough space in the styrofoam to slide in a 1x3 to splice the roof skin. Another will be installed across the splice between the closet wall and the new ceiling panel, doubling as an anchor point for the sliding closet doors. Once the inner panels are in place and the aluminum rafter is in place my intent is to install expanding foam as insulation and fill the void to structurally stabilize the roof section.



      This gives me the opportunity to tell my expanding foam story. When I was young and foolish I wanted to build a wood hydroplane. Every day I passed a boat supply place on my ride to school on the bus. They had a skeletal build of a kit in their front window. When I got kicked out of the house for beating my brother for stealing my coin collection to buy "candy". I moved in with a HS class-mate that was a year older. He had a 1,200 square foot apartment in a nice part of Detroit in 1970. I took the smaller bedroom. His girlfriend moved in, all hell broke loose and I came home to a mostly empty apartment with a bunch of broken dishes and a plaster "Love" statue of an intertwined couple, smashed to bits. I never heard from either one again, so I inherited his apartment and his cat. I moved into the master bedroom and decided that the 10 x 12 bedroom on the second floor would be the perfect place to build a 9-foot by 5-foot hydroplane. It wasn't a bad place to work, but the deep green shag carpet took a beating.

      The boat was built. I did a pretty nice job for an 18 year-old and I didn't want it to sink so I decided to fill every cavity with expanding foam. I bought a one gallon kit. I bought a half gallon Pyrex measuring cup. It weighed a ton. My plan was to mix a half-gallon of foam and evenly distribute it. I had no idea what I was about to do. I measured out a quart of the resin and cleared a path so I could walk around the boat. I never got the second quart into the mixing cup and it started growing exponentially. I literally ran around the boat distributing the growing foam as best I could, but it spilled over the sides forming stalactites that firmly attached the boat to the deep green shag. My vision clouded and my breathing became strained as it started raining in the spare bedroom. It was the middle of the winter and the poorly insulated attic made the ceiling cold and all that moisture released by the foam condensed on the cold ceiling and fell in a regular light rain pattern. Gasping for air I rushed to window and cranked the casement window open and the negative air pressure of the building caused frigid air to rush into the room that turned the air to fog. I couldn't find the door. I fell to he floor, like in a fire, but that didn't help. I crawled to the door and stumbled into the living room, exhausted. It took me hours to cut off what attached to the floor and to carve the rest until the outer skin would fit. I mostly fished it, but bought a 190SL that had Fred Flintstone floorpans and an "O" shift pattern. My attention went elsewhere and the boat got flipped over in the yard. A family of possum carved out a condo in the foam and made our dogs crazy, for years. When I moved here 25 years ago I went to move the boat and the only thing holding it together was the fiberglass matting. Mother Nature recycled the rest. She probably did me a favor.

      One of the tasks they asked me to do was install a larger flat screen, a much larger tv. While most people would draw up plans, I just do. In the doing the refinement of a cardboard template to a working wood adapter took little time. I'm able to create a 3D object without seeing it it my head. I will turn this over to the metal fab guy and have him make it in 3/32" stainless.





      I tested the wood template and it held the weight just fine, but the adapter should be steel or aluminum.

      The entertainment center wasn't working properly. A harness connector had come loose, but I did find some aftermarket hackwork splice using wireuts instead of crimp compactors. Gobs of tape doesn't help.



      Dot had complained that draining the water heater for winer storage let water into the trailer. I discovered a poor sealant installation that let water run into the trailer. I'm thinking the Dynamat would do a great job making it water-tight. I showed Gary how to clean and lubricate the bump-outs gear and rack system. They are the sort of thing that should be operated every once in a while to keep things moving. The new switches he bought work great. No more self-operating lifts. That was spooky to be working under it and hearing the lift try and work. I think what was happening is the switch would stick and the unit circuit breaker, rated at 6 amps, would open when it overloaded and started again when the bi-metal breaker reset itself. I figured out why water was getting into a storage area, wiping the Honey Do list pretty clean. Everything works!
      Last edited by barry2952; 10-22-2020 at 11:21 PM.

    4. #53
      Member BlackMiata's Avatar
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      Looking good.
      Curious how you do the expanding foam, my experiences using the expanding foam in a can, haven't always turned out as planned. Tried fixing an interior door that got a hole in it, figured the expanding foam would give it a bit more rigidity and hold the patch in place. End result was a door with a nice bulge, not too bad but definitely noticeable. So I'm' looking forward to seeing your technique, anticipating I'll be learning something new.

    5. #54
      Member barry2952's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by BlackMiata View Post
      Looking good.
      Curious how you do the expanding foam, my experiences using the expanding foam in a can, haven't always turned out as planned. Tried fixing an interior door that got a hole in it, figured the expanding foam would give it a bit more rigidity and hold the patch in place. End result was a door with a nice bulge, not too bad but definitely noticeable. So I'm' looking forward to seeing your technique, anticipating I'll be learning something new.
      I had my driveway slab lifted with foam a few years ago. It's difficult to control. The company that did the work no longer does it. Highly profitable, but I'm betting they "bulged" more than a few driveways.

      No, I learned from my mistakes. I put very little material down at a time. The force seems to exponentially increase with volume. I'm going to use a commercial 12 board foot kit to start with. For you youngsters that never took shop class a board foot is a 12-inch wide, 12-inch long and 1-inch volume of anything, but is started as a lumber term to describe the yield of a tree. I will avoid gettin the material anywhere onward pressure is a problem. I'll lay down a 4" grid and let it fully harden before laying down a grid between the first pass. I'll build volume for better control. Once the thin wood skin is covered than an even coating over the rest should minimize any interior bulging.

      If I were to use foam for a hollow door I would shoot very little material, and add to it after it cured.

    6. #55
      Member renegadeofpunk03's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      This gives me the opportunity to tell my expanding foam story... I had no idea what I was about to do...
      That's a great story. Mine isn't nearly as funny, but here goes. At some point in college, we thought it was hilarious to do "destructive testing" aka just smashing crap (i.e. discarded bowling ball, broken CRT monitor, etc.) to see what would happen - I went to a college that was half engineers, and our unofficial slogan was "where the men are men...and so are the women" so we had little else to do. Someone had the bright idea that a can of Great Stuff would be hilarious to smash open. You know, expanding foam, propellant, metal can, sounded like a decent idea at first. Cut to me dropping a rock on it from a 6' high balcony...let's say we underestimated the volume contained in one can, and the effectiveness with which the propellant would have scattering it. Everywhere. I was picking bits of foam off of every surrounding surface for weeks.

      Back on topic, your work looks awesome so far!
      ಠ_ಠ

    7. #56
      Member barry2952's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by renegadeofpunk03 View Post
      That's a great story. Mine isn't nearly as funny, but here goes. At some point in college, we thought it was hilarious to do "destructive testing" aka just smashing crap (i.e. discarded bowling ball, broken CRT monitor, etc.) to see what would happen - I went to a college that was half engineers, and our unofficial slogan was "where the men are men...and so are the women" so we had little else to do. Someone had the bright idea that a can of Great Stuff would be hilarious to smash open. You know, expanding foam, propellant, metal can, sounded like a decent idea at first. Cut to me dropping a rock on it from a 6' high balcony...let's say we underestimated the volume contained in one can, and the effectiveness with which the propellant would have scattering it. Everywhere. I was picking bits of foam off of every surrounding surface for weeks.

      Back on topic, your work looks awesome so far!
      Did you ever see the poor woman that mistook a can of foam for some kind of hair treatment?

    8. #57
      Member renegadeofpunk03's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      Did you ever see the poor woman that mistook a can of foam for some kind of hair treatment?
      Oh god, that would be truly awful. It's not fun to get off of porous things. Fortunately, I was clean shaven at the time and had short hair
      ಠ_ಠ

    9. #58
      Member Bibs's Avatar
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      Great work, Barry...as always, thanks for the education.

      That fall looks nasty. I once had a spell of sleepless nights, long work days and travel...and probably dehydration...
      I was visiting my brother, got to the top of his stairs, blacked out and fell backwards.
      Ass over apple cart, but nothing broken....except my brothers drywall.

      Can’t believe I didn’t hurt myself.


      Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

    10. #59
      Member barry2952's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bibs View Post
      Can’t believe I didn’t hurt myself.


      Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
      Lucky, you were. I can't believe I didn't break anything. The bigger they are the harder they fall. I've had worse. I leaned a ladder against a brace in a factory and it was poorly secured. I came down with the ladder on my knees and elbows. I'm surprised, at 68, that anything works.


      Lyndon can make the most utilitarian corner braces look like works of art. Seems a shame to bury them in foam, but I couldn't a better way to attach the new rafter. I shudder at bringing a welder anywhere near this trailer. I'm thinking about epoxying these in place in addition to the rivets. Overkill?




    11. #60
      Member BlackMiata's Avatar
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      I concur, those braces do look good. In the woodworking realm, its is common to glue and screw, so I'd be inclined to glue and pop-rivet if I was doing the repair. Only reason I'd not glue is if I ever though there would be a need to drill the pop-rivets to remove the braces. In this application I think that is extremely unlikely.

      Given the amount of foam in the trailer, I concur with the hesitancy to attempt any welding. But I'm curious to know if the foam has any flame retardant properties. Given how much you've removed it would be an interesting experiment to take some outside where it is safe to do so and see how or if it ignites/burns.

    12. #61
      Overkill? Yes. Exactly why I would do it

    13. #62
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      Epxoy or polyurethane. I like PU because it is quite waterproof and long-term flexible.
      I AM DISCO DIVA!
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    14. #63
      Member barry2952's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
      Epxoy or polyurethane. I like PU because it is quite waterproof and long-term flexible.
      Can you recommend a poly product?

    15. #64
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      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      Can you recommend a poly product?
      PL construction adhesive. I can't remember if it's still branded OSI or it's now Loctite.

      That or windshield adhesive. Any windshield adhesive will also be a good choice.
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    16. #65
      Member barry2952's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
      PL construction adhesive. I can't remember if it's still branded OSI or it's now Loctite.

      That or windshield adhesive. Any windshield adhesive will also be a good choice.
      Oh boy, I get to use my Cleco's again. Best fab tool.

    17. #66
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      Just got caught up on this thread.

      I'm pleasantly surprised at the quality of the trailer build, and the ability to use somewhat standard repair methods to get it back into shape. I'm always concerned about the potential for leaks on a trailer but it looks like you'll have that covered.

      And the expanding foam story.....

    18. #67
      Member barry2952's Avatar
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      This is the picture I was thinking of. Turns out the poor woman may have been attacked. ****ty prank.


    19. #68
      Member renegadeofpunk03's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      Oh boy, I get to use my Cleco's again. Best fab tool.
      We use rivbonding at work for dynamic structures. Holds up really well to vibration. Toughened epoxy is actually relatively flexible, the rivets keep things from flexing too much anyway. We use ScotchWeld DP420 for mounting click bonds, which use no rivets. If you do the prep work right, the bonds are insanely strong - if you pry one off, generally its the base material that fails and stays with the bond itself.
      ಠ_ಠ

    20. #69
      Member barry2952's Avatar
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      I ordered 4 tubes of 3M windshield adhesive to bed everything. Tough stuff.

      When I bought my Clecos to build my car hauler in 2006 I taught myself to rivet. Having very long arms I could be the bucker and the buckee. There's a sound and a feeling you hear and get when the operation is complete. It's quite possible to rivet without denting the metal, but you have to over-rivet to match the factory production look.



      These are called "Plier Operated" Cleco Fasteners used is auto body and airframe applications where multiple layers of metal need to be drawn tightly together before riveting. It's crucial for strength that there be no gaps between the layers cause by burrs or shavings. You must de-burr both sides of drilled holes to insure that there can be no movement. Clecos are temporary fasteners. They are available in 4 standard sizes. I'm using the black 5/32" Clecos. The copper ones are 1/8". I bought about a dozen black ones for oversized holes. The rivets I bought are a perfect fit.

      The outer parts are spring loaded. It it relaxed state the center divider forces the center tongue to spread out the tanged side pieces. When the plier pressure is applied the center tongue darts forward putting a much thinner section between the tangs shrinking their size so that they can be inserted into a proper size hole. Now that the tangs are on the other sod of the metal releasing the spring retracts the tongue and spreads the tangs to grip the back side of the hole and draw that metal to together, temporarily.

      Once everything is fitted and de-burred it can be glued and riveted for a strong, yet flexible bond. These are extra long versions for thicker material. The thinner the assembly the smaller the range.

      [IMG]http://clecofasteners.info/img/clecos/extra-long-pl-slide.jpg/IMG]

      Using the original spacer from the other side I was able to determine that I had returned the damaged metal to its correct position which allowed me to use silicone to attach the body skin back to the framework so I can adhere a new insulation pad that the inner skin attaches to. They used silicone, so I followed suit.

      This was quite a pivotal moment for this repair



      This is a common tool for riveting. By expanding and contacting the assembly you can easily match the original pattern. My next task was to reinforce the roof panel I removed to get to the damage.



      I marked every location but circled every other location for screws that will hold the splice support made of clear 1x3 white pine.



      The support serves as a ledge to attach the outer skin to. I counter-sunk the stainless square drive flathead screws as I didn't want round head scews to add to the assembly's thickness as the new aluminum skin stretches beyond this joint and attached into an aluminum roof truss. I'm being careful to use fasteners standard to that industry.



      You can see the 1x3 ledge and the 1x3 cap that will give the sliding glass doors something very substantial to mount the track to and tie into the tops of the walls on either side. It re-unifies the structure that had been screwed into sheetmetal that was part of the ceiling panel. Likely as strong as the original, if not stronger.


    21. #70
      As always, very nice! That marking tool is really cool, makes it nearly foolproof.

      Vince

    22. #71
      Member barry2952's Avatar
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      Now I get to tell my nightmare story everyone in the restoration or repair business has had. An encounter with a hapless and unqualified "new person" that hasn't a clue. Gary has sourced a replacement ladder from the trailer manufacturer but was dissuaded from buying the ladder direct, but none of dealers had a clue as to who to ask what, so no-one called him back. I took the reins and worked my way in as a dealer and spoke to the same idiot he did. She told me that the freight for the $400 40-pound ladder would be as much as the ladder itself. I started with her on October 15th and finally placed an order after giving her supervisor an earful 10 days later. To avoid the high freight and crating charge I decided to send someone to Indiana to get the ladder and other original color paneling and the odd 2.5" x 1"x .055 wall lightweight tubing to make a new truss bar.

      She quoted me prices and then doubled them on the final invoice. instead of 2 8' pieces of aluminum she wrote up the order for one 2-foot piece. I was told the ladder was in stock, but it wasn't. 4-6-weeks out. The person that called me to finalize the credit card transaction caught the brunt of my frustration. She understood once she read the mile-long e-mail chain. She turned me over to their supervisor after I got the excuse, "Well, she's new." The manager asked if she could have time to read the chain of communication and said, "You clearly begged her to finalize the transaction 5 days ago. I can't believe it was this badly botched."

      I was told by the first person that it would take two weeks to cut the aluminum in half so that we could transport it in a mini-van. That's when I lost it. The manager stepped up, got everything gathered and it's waiting for pick-up tomorrow. The ladder will be shipped without shipping charges right from the manufacturer.

      BTW, the onerous shipping charge was only $130.00, not $400. She apparently never inquired, betting she told everyone that. BTW, the ladder, as a dealer, was only $186.00.


    23. #72
      Member barry2952's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by renegadeofpunk03 View Post
      We use rivbonding at work for dynamic structures. Holds up really well to vibration. Toughened epoxy is actually relatively flexible, the rivets keep things from flexing too much anyway. We use ScotchWeld DP420 for mounting click bonds, which use no rivets. If you do the prep work right, the bonds are insanely strong - if you pry one off, generally its the base material that fails and stays with the bond itself.
      What are dynamic structures?

    24. #73
      Senior Member Iroczgirl's Avatar
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      While I like the progress, it appears that complete incompetence is the norm these days. Sorry you had to suffer through that ordeal.
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    25. #74
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      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      What are dynamic structures?
      I can't speak for the original source, but in my career working on airborne systems I think of dynamic structures as things like wings on an aircraft, they look pretty ridged on the ground but move in a variety of ways while flying. Finding ways to bond and fasten stuff that moves like that is an art. Also have experience with click bonds, those things are amazing and versatile. Need a stud to mount something, glue it right where you need it.

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