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    1. #651
      Member SchnellFowVay's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      Okay so this Dual Clutch vs ZF Automatic thing has really thrown me for a loop.

      I've been looking into it a lot online and everyone is raving about the ZF and saying it's SOOO much better than dual clutch.

      And the crazy thing is, the stuff they're saying is better, is actually the stuff I truly thought was worse.

      Like they're saying it's faster off the line, changes gears faster, is sharper and feels better etc.

      Those are all the things I thought were noticeably worse.

      I'm honestly so confused.

      So, I can't stand full autos, even the ZF. The DSG is soooo much better. There's no torque converter -- there is a direct mechanical link (forgetting about drive by wire) between the throttle and the engine.

      I kind of like the occasional abruptness of the DSG -- it reminds me that my car isn't a true "automatic."

      Unfortunately, dual clutches, in anything outside of super specialized applications (Porsche PDK; Ferrari F1 Transmission) are likely on the way out. They are expensive to make, even more expensive to make handle the massive torque loads of todays turbocharged V8s, and they cause complaints from the "I want my RS5 to drive smoothly to the country club where I play golf" crowd.
      Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Russells View Post
      I used to pack his chute all the time

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    3. #652
      Member Jimmy Russells's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      Okay so this Dual Clutch vs ZF Automatic thing has really thrown me for a loop.

      I've been looking into it a lot online and everyone is raving about the ZF and saying it's SOOO much better than dual clutch.

      And the crazy thing is, the stuff they're saying is better, is actually the stuff I truly thought was worse.

      Like they're saying it's faster off the line, changes gears faster, is sharper and feels better etc.

      Those are all the things I thought were noticeably worse.

      I'm honestly so confused.

      All the above is way over generalised because depending on the programming of the ZF and whoevers dual clutch we're talking about either one can be better than the other.

      In general DSG's are better the harder they are being driven. They aren't as good around town and at low speeds. They still work fine and all that but they are a little clunkier. The advantage is there is no torque converter, the car feels exactly like a manual during coasting, engine braking etc. There is no slop or lag like you typically get with a torque converter.

      Its kind of like comparing a soft rubber bushing in the suspension compared to a rigid metal joint. One has some give for comfort and the other doesn't.

    4. #653
      You can't look at my avatar for just a second, can you? Just Another Sweater's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Russells View Post
      All the above is way over generalised because depending on the programming of the ZF and whoevers dual clutch we're talking about either one can be better than the other.

      In general DSG's are better the harder they are being driven. They aren't as good around town and at low speeds. They still work fine and all that but they are a little clunkier. The advantage is there is no torque converter, the car feels exactly like a manual during coasting, engine braking etc. There is no slop or lag like you typically get with a torque converter.

      Its kind of like comparing a soft rubber bushing in the suspension compared to a rigid metal joint. One has some give for comfort and the other doesn't.
      Well said. At speed the DSG works great but in parking lots they are temperamental. Clanky even at times.

    5. #654
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      Quote Originally Posted by Itgb View Post
      I did the BMW drive event today since I was curious how the new BMWs stack up. I haven’t driven anything newer than a F30 328i which was a huge letdown. The relevant part to this thread was that I took out a X4 M Competition to see what the M3 drivetrain would feel like. When it was off boost(0-30mph) it was really laggy. Above that it took off like a rocket. In addition to the lag, the transmission was a huge step down from a dual clutch. It was ok an M340i but a full M car deserves a dual clutch. After driving a couple of PDKs I can’t understand BMW’s reasoning to go with the standard auto in these M cars.
      If it's the same (or similar) 8-speed that's in the F90 then it should be just fine. I have an F10 M5 with the DCT but, after having driven the new F90s, I didn't have any issues with it. It's fast and, more importantly, won't scare the **** out of you from time to time.

    6. #655
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      Quote Originally Posted by Just Another Sweater View Post
      Well said. At speed the DSG works great but in parking lots they are temperamental. Clanky even at times.
      BMW’s DCT isn’t that way at low speeds though. Its more like a perfectly driven manual. It’s a shame they’re moving away from it because it’s currently their best transmission. The ZF isn’t even a close second, I’d take a manual over the 8HP given the choice.
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    7. #656
      Member GLI Dan's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by fknlo View Post
      Yup. It sneakily pulls a decent amount of power. Is yours DCT or 6 speed? This is probably all bull****, but I think the DCT has more issues putting power down just due to the way it works. Instant shifts at full throttle putting you in the middle of the power band will make tires spin. Crank hubs too
      DCT, it really is downright violent in its most aggressive settings, I love it. And yes, it chirps third all day and if it its a slightest bit wet out, I'll lose traction going into fourth which is triple digits. Its quite ridiculous.
      Quote Originally Posted by DzlDub View Post
      Cars are ****ing awesome, anyone who doesn't want a car is a communist.
      Disclaimer: Generally, I strongly dislike people.
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    8. #657
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      Quote Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
      BMW’s DCT isn’t that way at low speeds though. Its more like a perfectly driven manual. It’s a shame they’re moving away from it because it’s currently their best transmission. The ZF isn’t even a close second, I’d take a manual over the 8HP given the choice.
      Any reasoning on it? If it's cost savings...

    9. #658
      Member SCHWAB0's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      Totally.

      So can we talk about this for a bit?
      I was really shocked how noticeably worse that ZF was compared to the DSG. I've been in dual-clutch gearboxes for the last 6 years so I'm really used to them, but I kind of assumed the ZF wouldn't really be that much different.
      But it was a HUGE difference. Slower shifts, up and down. And much less engaging. Kinda slurs the gears together instead of a crisp shift like you get with DSG.
      Here's my concern though, aren't a lot of manufactures who make dual-clutch boxes going away from them and just putting normal autos in even their performance cars? Or have I got it wrong?
      Will we one day be longing for DSG the way we long for manuals?
      I think so ... I mean I've made the leap from 6MT to DSG and the transition wasn't all that bad, the "jerkiness" of the DSG is what I enjoy about it ... weird huh? . It has a bit more feedback when switching gears especially in the RS3.

      Quote Originally Posted by gti5dr06 View Post
      i cant figure out why audi decided to swap the dsg for the S4/A4 this gen. Why not have it across the entire line?
      Its not a torque issue is it? That was always acura's excuse with wasting their only main stream dsg in the ILX only.
      it's cost and who the car is aimed that in general ... the people with money don't care about how the tranmission shifts ... they want smooth.

      Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Russells View Post
      RS4/5/6 all have the ZF too

      Bottom line is it's probably cheaper and people want the smooth.
      Cheaper to source, cheaper to maintain and win/win for all, on paper.

      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      Okay so this Dual Clutch vs ZF Automatic thing has really thrown me for a loop.

      I've been looking into it a lot online and everyone is raving about the ZF and saying it's SOOO much better than dual clutch.

      And the crazy thing is, the stuff they're saying is better, is actually the stuff I truly thought was worse.
      Like they're saying it's faster off the line, changes gears faster, is sharper and feels better etc.
      Those are all the things I thought were noticeably worse.
      I'm honestly so confused.
      Haven't you noticed that the avg. car owner is an idiot? You pretty much know they want the exact opposite of what an enthusiast does. That's why every car we say will fail ends up being a success i.e. boring and tame and cheap.

      Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Russells View Post
      All the above is way over generalised because depending on the programming of the ZF and whoevers dual clutch we're talking about either one can be better than the other.
      In general DSG's are better the harder they are being driven. They aren't as good around town and at low speeds. They still work fine and all that but they are a little clunkier. The advantage is there is no torque converter, the car feels exactly like a manual during coasting, engine braking etc. There is no slop or lag like you typically get with a torque converter.
      Its kind of like comparing a soft rubber bushing in the suspension compared to a rigid metal joint. One has some give for comfort and the other doesn't.
      I agree, the harder the drive the more the DSG shines ... I mean the launch control is a thing that is the greatest thing ever made IMHO ... from factory ya'll.

      Don't worry ya'll ... our kids won't have these discussions as the cars will be a service for rent/uber and no tranmissions will be inside ..traditional car ownership is probably going to be going away at some point too .. why have a depreciating asset sit for 90% of its time when you can rent it ... and use it at your leisure for way less $$.
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    10. #659
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      Quote Originally Posted by CostcoPizza View Post
      Any reasoning on it? If it's cost savings...
      That has to be something to do with it. BMW has been using the Getrag unit since 2008 but I don’t think it’s compatible with AWD, so they’d have to either develop a new one or license the ZF units that Porsche uses if they even can.

      The ZF 8HP is a great automatic transmission and it’s fine for the standard lineup, but with the amount of AWD M cars they’re selling these days, you’d think they’d be able to give them a bespoke transmission. It’s not like they’re continuing to develop the manual and the development costs went to it either. Porsche/ZF really got it right using the PDK as the base for the manual allowing them to offer both transmissions across the vehicles that use them.
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    11. #660
      Member GLI Dan's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by SCHWAB0 View Post
      I think so ... I mean I've made the leap from 6MT to DSG and the transition wasn't all that bad, the "jerkiness" of the DSG is what I enjoy about it ... weird huh? . It has a bit more feedback when switching gears especially in the RS3.



      it's cost and who the car is aimed that in general ... the people with money don't care about how the tranmission shifts ... they want smooth.



      Haven't you noticed that the avg. car owner is an idiot? You pretty much know they want the exact opposite of what an enthusiast does. That's why every car we say will fail ends up being a success i.e. boring and tame and cheap.



      I agree, the harder the drive the more the DSG shines ... I mean the launch control is a thing that is the greatest thing ever made IMHO ... from factory ya'll.
      I agree with all of the above. I miss having a manual, but living in Florida it's just a hassle to have one for a DD because there aren't any roads I can go bomb on the weekend. IN steps DCT and its perfect. I get all the control I want, with about 85% of the engagement but all of the ease of an auto. Obviously if I have a weekend toy its different, but for a DD, for my use case, it is perfect.

      But as you point out, the reasons I think its perfect are the reasons the average person (aka my Fiance) do not like it. It is, at the end of the day, still a manual transmission, but a computer handles the clutch for you. Depending upon what setting you're in, you need to drive as though it is a manual. Which for me, 95% of the time, I'm in manual mode. ABout the only time I'm not, is in the morning as I leave my house and the car is still warming up.
      Quote Originally Posted by DzlDub View Post
      Cars are ****ing awesome, anyone who doesn't want a car is a communist.
      Disclaimer: Generally, I strongly dislike people.
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    12. #661
      Senior Member JustinCSVT's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
      That has to be something to do with it. BMW has been using the Getrag unit since 2008 but I don’t think it’s compatible with AWD, so they’d have to either develop a new one or license the ZF units that Porsche uses if they even can.

      The ZF 8HP is a great automatic transmission and it’s fine for the standard lineup, but with the amount of AWD M cars they’re selling these days, you’d think they’d be able to give them a bespoke transmission. It’s not like they’re continuing to develop the manual and the development costs went to it either. Porsche/ZF really got it right using the PDK as the base for the manual allowing them to offer both transmissions across the vehicles that use them.
      Why do they need a bespoke transmission when their customers are happy with the 8HP and the performance numbers aren't any worse?

      Does anyone else in the class offer a DCT?

    13. #662
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      Quote Originally Posted by JustinCSVT View Post
      Why do they need a bespoke transmission when their customers are happy with the 8HP and the performance numbers aren't any worse?

      Does anyone else in the class offer a DCT?
      The M3 has always had different transmission options then the standard 3er back to E36 6MT in the ROW models. With the NA models, it started with the E46 SMG and continued with the E90 and F80 DCT.

      It’s not just the performance numbers though, it’s about the driving experience. Which is why they also continue to offer the 6MT.

      Porsche still offers a DCT, not necessarily the same class but they are cross-shopped and compared.
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    14. #663
      Senior Member JustinCSVT's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
      The M3 has always had different transmission options then the standard 3er back to E36 6MT in the ROW models. With the NA models, it started with the E46 SMG and continued with the E90 and F80 DCT.

      It’s not just the performance numbers though, it’s about the driving experience. Which is why they also continue to offer the 6MT.

      Porsche still offers a DCT, not necessarily the same class but they are cross-shopped and compared.
      Things change. The M3 used to have a unique engine as well. Now it shares with a couple of SUV's and probably the Supra later. As far as the auto:

      Launch control - check
      Fast shifts - check
      Paddle shifters work - check
      Smooth operation - check

      It does pretty much everything auto drivers in this class want.

      When the C63, CT4/CT5 Blackwing, Giulia QV, RS4/5 all have regular autos, I think BMW is perfectly justified in using the S58+8HP especially given its reliability and economic scale benefits. Besides, just like you said, if they want the real drivers car option, there's always a manual.
      Last edited by JustinCSVT; 10-12-2020 at 11:40 PM.

    15. #664
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      Quote Originally Posted by SchnellFowVay View Post
      So, I can't stand full autos, even the ZF. The DSG is soooo much better. There's no torque converter -- there is a direct mechanical link (forgetting about drive by wire) between the throttle and the engine.

      I kind of like the occasional abruptness of the DSG -- it reminds me that my car isn't a true "automatic."

      Unfortunately, dual clutches, in anything outside of super specialized applications (Porsche PDK; Ferrari F1 Transmission) are likely on the way out. They are expensive to make, even more expensive to make handle the massive torque loads of todays turbocharged V8s, and they cause complaints from the "I want my RS5 to drive smoothly to the country club where I play golf" crowd.
      Yes but the terrible farting/blatting noises they make while running through the gears are something I could live without. The amount of VAGbois running around with loud Golf R and RS3s makes me really hate DSGs. Manuals actually sound better under hard acceleration.

    16. #665
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      Quote Originally Posted by JustinCSVT View Post
      Things change. The M3 used to have a unique engine as well. Now it shares with a couple of SUV's and probably the Supra later.
      The M5 has shared the S63 with a couple of SUVs for 10+ years at this point. They had no issue giving it the DCT and 6MT even though the SUVs used the ZF 6HP and 8HP at the time. It was the move to AWD that made it auto only.


      Quote Originally Posted by JustinCSVT View Post
      As far as the auto:

      Launch control - check
      Fast shifts - check
      Paddle shifters work - check
      Smooth operation - check

      It does pretty much everything auto drivers in this class want.
      In the M5/M8 and their size gains I'd agree at this point but in the M2/M3/M4, no thanks.

      Quote Originally Posted by JustinCSVT View Post
      When the C63, CT4/CT5 Blackwing, Giulia QV, RS4/5 all have regular autos, I think BMW is perfectly justified in using the S58+8HP especially given its reliability and economic scale benefits.
      AMG has been auto only for 20+ years and started this whole shift. The other manufacturers don't have the history that BMW has offering multiple transmission choices either.

      Quote Originally Posted by JustinCSVT View Post
      Besides, just like you said, if they want the real drivers car option, there's always a manual.
      And this is the biggest issue. They only offer the manual on the base M3, you can't get it with the Comp or with AWD. So now they can say the uptake was minimal for it even though they offered it and then drop it altogether next gen. This is exactly how manufacturers have phased out manuals and BMW is using this gen to do so with the M2/M3/M4.
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    17. #666
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      Quote Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
      And this is the biggest issue. They only offer the manual on the base M3, you can't get it with the Comp or with AWD. So now they can say the uptake was minimal for it even though they offered it and then drop it altogether next gen. This is exactly how manufacturers have phased out manuals and BMW is using this gen to do so with the M2/M3/M4.
      The Comp is not really a fundamentally different car than the base one though.

    18. #667
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      Quote Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
      The M5 has shared the S63 with a couple of SUVs for 10+ years at this point. They had no issue giving it the DCT and 6MT even though the SUVs used the ZF 6HP and 8HP at the time. It was the move to AWD that made it auto only.




      In the M5/M8 and their size gains I'd agree at this point but in the M2/M3/M4, no thanks.



      AMG has been auto only for 20+ years and started this whole shift. The other manufacturers don't have the history that BMW has offering multiple transmission choices either.



      And this is the biggest issue. They only offer the manual on the base M3, you can't get it with the Comp or with AWD. So now they can say the uptake was minimal for it even though they offered it and then drop it altogether next gen. This is exactly how manufacturers have phased out manuals and BMW is using this gen to do so with the M2/M3/M4.
      Let's be honest here. The only reason BMW isn't truly willing to invest in more special items for the M3/4 is that they need to save money for their BEV transformation. All manufacturers are doing this- slowly pairing down the variations of their ICE vehicles as they plunge R&D money into BEV development while also appeasing shareholders.
      Quote Originally Posted by Doug Butabi View Post
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    19. #668
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Russells View Post
      Its kind of like comparing a soft rubber bushing in the suspension compared to a rigid metal joint. One has some give for comfort and the other doesn't.
      This. The bushing might not have to give up much performance at all and get a lot of comfort. But some people just don't care. And further, the ZF8 is a huge transmission and requires a separate axle. You'd never fit it where the [relatively] compact PDK transaxle goes. Whereas the transaxle ZF conventional auto isn't nearly as good as the 8HP. So the torque converters are a better fit for larger cars both literally and figuratively.,

    20. #669
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      Quote Originally Posted by JustinCSVT View Post
      When the C63, CT4/CT5 Blackwing, Giulia QV, RS4/5 all have regular autos, I think BMW is perfectly justified in using the S58+8HP especially given its reliability and economic scale benefits. Besides, just like you said, if they want the real drivers car option, there's always a manual.
      The Mercedes does not have a "regular" automatic- they use a wet clutch setup w/o torque converter.

    21. #670
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      Quote Originally Posted by TangoRed View Post
      Let's be honest here. The only reason BMW isn't truly willing to invest in more special items for the M3/4 is that they need to save money for their BEV transformation. All manufacturers are doing this- slowly pairing down the variations of their ICE vehicles as they plunge R&D money into BEV development while also appeasing shareholders.
      ^^^Good point/sad but true.

      I love the DSG in my RS3, but it does come with some clunks/abruptness that a regular auto wouldn't have. IMO, it adds to the character of the car in a positive way.

      But yeah, realizing that cars in general will get "less special" as time goes by.
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    22. #671
      Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      The Comp is not really a fundamentally different car than the base one though.
      Being fundamentally different has never been the issue. Getting a luxury car with all the luxury BS, is the issue. Now I love the idea that I can only get a manual in the lower spec, but that is not necessarily an opinion shared by a lot of people who buy these cars. A guy near me bought some "final edition" F8x a couple of months ago. It's red and has some trim differences and the wheels are colored differently vs the standard ZCP cars. Why would anyone waste their money on trim bits and a "final edition". Why not buy a regular F8x or better yet, a slightly used one? People like stuff. They aren't making decisions on cars like this for strictly rational reasons.

      Ok, not "final edition": https://www.topspeed.com/cars/bmw/20...-ar186441.html

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      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      The Comp is not really a fundamentally different car than the base one though.
      I'd consider the AWD option fundamentally different than the base RWD vehicle. If I were to purchase a G80, it would be the AWD Comp.

      Quote Originally Posted by TangoRed View Post
      Let's be honest here. The only reason BMW isn't truly willing to invest in more special items for the M3/4 is that they need to save money for their BEV transformation. All manufacturers are doing this- slowly pairing down the variations of their ICE vehicles as they plunge R&D money into BEV development while also appeasing shareholders.
      True and it's one of the reason they're pushing the 8HP, mild hybrid ready and most of their lineup has already moved to the 48V system.
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    24. #673
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      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      Being fundamentally different has never been the issue. Getting a luxury car with all the luxury BS, is the issue. Now I love the idea that I can only get a manual in the lower spec, but that is not necessarily an opinion shared by a lot of people who buy these cars. A guy near me bought some "final edition" F8x a couple of months ago. It's red and has some trim differences and the wheels are colored differently vs the standard ZCP cars. Why would anyone waste their money on trim bits and a "final edition". Why not buy a regular F8x or better yet, a slightly used one? People like stuff. They aren't making decisions on cars like this for strictly rational reasons.

      Ok, not "final edition": https://www.topspeed.com/cars/bmw/20...-ar186441.html
      Right, but aside from AWD and the extra power the base M3 has all the same available options as the Comp, no?

    25. #674
      Moderator Oliver@triplezoom's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
      I'd consider the AWD option fundamentally different than the base RWD vehicle. If I were to purchase a G80, it would be the AWD Comp.
      Fair enough, and BMW's refusal to put manuals in its recent AWD cars is definitely annoying.

      With the E90 they sold a ton of manual 328i xDrives in Canada and then that option went away with the F30. Similarly, not offering a manual on the 2-series with xDrive means manual 2-series are super rare here.

    26. #675
      Senior Member JustinCSVT's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by t44tq View Post
      The Mercedes does not have a "regular" automatic- they use a wet clutch setup w/o torque converter.
      Oh brother.

      Yes, I know.

      Regardless, this class has been trending in the direction of non-DCT autos for awhile.
      Last edited by JustinCSVT; 10-14-2020 at 02:20 PM.

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